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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
You don't live in the real world do you?

You'd rather have people killed, DEAD...

And you cannot name a single RIGHT lost during the Bush years... you actually made me sick
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"WHO" doesn't live in the real world? Got a barf bag? :doh
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
Because in the end, human is human. Terrorist or no, they are still human. I think we should work hard to limit torture as much as possible. There are too many different things which can get involved if we take it as standard operating procedure. And how good is the information? I'm sure from time to time you're bound to get something; does that ok the use of torture? Even if it catches some innocents in with it? The entire "there's a bomb going to explode, only torturing this terrorist will get you the information you need" scenario is ridiculously rare. And what's to say you have the right guy, or the information will be correct? It's too inconsistent, too many things can be exploited and abused. It's best to do our best to avoid it.

Terrorists may do despicable acts, but that doesn't mean we have to reciprocate. We're better than they are, we can show mercy even to those whom wish us harm.
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But some humans need to be killed. ;)
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
I have a rock that scares away tigers. I saw a tiger once, then I got this rock. Now there are no more tigers.
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That's such childish over simplification.

Terrorist attack repeatedly, we treat them like criminals.

Terrorist pull off 9/11

We treat them much more harshly.

No more attacks.

Logic says, terrorist + harsh treatment = prevention.

Unless of course, political sensibility is interjected... then reason goes out and emotion must be plugged in. Terrorist + any form of harsh treatment to save lives = politically incorrect.

As several people have stated, mind boggingly so on here, they would rather terrorist succeed in killing innocent people then to "treat them harshly".
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

ADK_Forever said:
"WHO" doesn't live in the real world? Got a barf bag? :doh
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Got a right you lost? No? Didn't think so.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:
I would rather see that than the diminution of our rights and the loss of our moral standing and the safety of our citizens and military personnel abroad.
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Well this is great to hear. lets just hope that when it happens, they kill your friends and family members this time, instead of mine. Then lets see you exaggerated claims about rights and moral standings. :roll:
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Goshin said:
Did anybody bring up that we waterboard many of our own soldiers as part of training them to deal with interrogation?

Buddies of mine have told me of being waterboarded in advanced training in the service. They said it was virtually impossible not to comply with whatever was being asked of them, but that it did them no lasting harm.

If we do it to our own soldiers to toughen them up and prepare them for the worst, I have no problem with doing it to known terrorists if we reasonably believe doing so may prevent an attack.

There's apparently a world of difference between waterboarding, and traditional "torture" such as splinting the fingernails, cutting off body parts, etc.

G.
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I bring this up all the time, I was waterboarded in SERE school, and I am mentally ok. :thumbs:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
Wait, so your comments aren't about within our border but simply attacks on American's abroad?

Since 9/11 we've had routinely attacks by terrorists upon our military and military installations and our embassy. Or do attacks on embassies, facilities, and troops only count for when it happens to Clinton.

Or are you going to bring up Kohbar towers which wasn't American land, but was reportedly partially targeting Americans. Because if you wish to bring that up I'd point to the 2005 Amman Bombings.

Sorry, by WHATEVER standard you want to push it, its not a good way of measuring things. From 1993 to September 10th, 2001 we had no attacks within our border. We did have attack on U.S. Lands (embassies), but we've had that in the past 8 years. We did have attacks on U.S. military vehicles, but we've had that in the past 8 years. We did have attacks on troop facilities, we've had that in the past 8 years. We did have attacks on non-US facilities that killed Americans, but we've had that too.

You're massively mistaken if you think I prefer the Clinton method completely. Especially when I stated that nothing that I was stating meant Clinton's policies were any better than Bush's.

But that's typical of you Mr. V. Someone dares disagree with you so naturally they must be a terrorist loving torture hating lefty fool regardless of any actual FACTS outside of disagreeing with you. If the option was "Bush's way" or "Clinton's way" and that was my only options I'd choose Bush's without a second hesitation. That said, NEITHER way is perfect or even near perfect and Bush's still needs a GREAT deal of fine tuning and has a GREAT deal of things I have issues with. I also have been on record numerous times in this forum to saying that many of the Bush administration actions HAVE gone about making us safer, however using the false, ignorant, ****ty attempt at logic by saying "we were attacked on 9/11 so clinton's policies are bad, we haven't been attacked since 9/11 so Bush's policies are good" is up there just below "God Told me so" in regards to the worst ways of attempting to prove that point.
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WTF is with people? Are you all intentionally being dense?


I'm talking TERRORIST ATTACKS on American interests. Why is that comment so hard to wrap your head around?

And this isn't about Bush or Clinton... it's about methods used and which worked! Clinton ran with one mindset, and the world seemed to approve of it. It however was flawed in that terrorist seemed to keep blowing **** up. The Kobar towers, the WTC, the USS Cole... 9/11 comes along and our leaders decide "okay, now we're serious". And guess what?

Attacks on American soil 0.

Attacks on American interest? Almost nil. Yes, you could say daily if you pull up Iraq, and I can grant that on a technicality, but it is a war/combat situation... so that cancels it all out.


Many attacks were averted because of the more intense information gathering, from electronic to waterboarding three scum bags. Lives were saved, terrorist captured, all in all it proved effective.


What's so hard to get about that?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
Attacks on American soil 0.
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Attacks on American Soil from after the 1993 WTC to September 10th 2001? 0.

I guess it'd have been accurate then to say on September 10th, 2001 unquestioningly that ALL of Clinton's policies worked perfectly.

That's my issue. THIS IS NOT PROOF.

CORRELATION DOES NOT PROVE CAUSATIOn.

Just because we have not been attacked in our borders yet DOES NOT MEAN unquestionably Bush's policies are the reason for it. That doesn't PROVE anything. Its idiotic, illogical, and politically lazy to try and claim that THAT is the proof for your statement because on September 10th 2001 you could say the EXACT SAME THING about the Policies you're LAMBASTING.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
That's such childish over simplification.

Terrorist attack repeatedly, we treat them like criminals.

Terrorist pull off 9/11

We treat them much more harshly.

No more attacks.

Logic says, terrorist + harsh treatment = prevention.

Unless of course, political sensibility is interjected... then reason goes out and emotion must be plugged in. Terrorist + any form of harsh treatment to save lives = politically incorrect.

As several people have stated, mind boggingly so on here, they would rather terrorist succeed in killing innocent people then to "treat them harshly".
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No it's not, it's the very same logic as your "terrorist" argument. You haven't proved causation...hell you haven't even proven correlation (though I could buy a correlation). The only thing you've presented is coincidental and nothing more. As I said, I have a rock that scares away tigers. You don't see any tigers around...do you?

5 terrorist attacks on US State soil since the 20's. And one of those was domestic. So I'm not about to start jumping up and down claiming great success from horrible increases in government and occupational war that is the longest war in US history and has no conceivable end at this point.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
But some humans need to be killed. ;)
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There are circumstances where necessary evil must be taken. But I think we should do our best to limit the amount we engage in evil overall. If avoidable, we should avoid it.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
There are circumstances where necessary evil must be taken. But I think we should do our best to limit the amount we engage in evil overall. If avoidable, we should avoid it.
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This is true.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
We're better than they are, we can show mercy even to those whom wish us harm.
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And we want to do this because....????:confused:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

winston53660 said:
Because we are better.
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Sounds noble and all that....except how exactly is that "better"?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

celticlord said:
And we want to do this because....????:confused:
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Because we're not animals. We know and can do better, and thus we should. There's a lot of value in the higher moral ground. I'd rather not jump off.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
Attacks on American Soil from after the 1993 WTC to September 10th 2001? 0.

I guess it'd have been accurate then to say on September 10th, 2001 unquestioningly that ALL of Clinton's policies worked perfectly.

That's my issue. THIS IS NOT PROOF.

CORRELATION DOES NOT PROVE CAUSATIOn.

Just because we have not been attacked in our borders yet DOES NOT MEAN unquestionably Bush's policies are the reason for it. That doesn't PROVE anything. Its idiotic, illogical, and politically lazy to try and claim that THAT is the proof for your statement because on September 10th 2001 you could say the EXACT SAME THING about the Policies you're LAMBASTING.
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WRONG.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_United_States_embassy_bombings]1998 United States embassy bombings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
Because we're not animals. We know and can do better, and thus we should. There's a lot of value in the higher moral ground. I'd rather not jump off.
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Except you have not established that yours is the higher moral ground.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
Because we're not animals. We know and can do better, and thus we should. There's a lot of value in the higher moral ground. I'd rather not jump off.
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How are we not more moral now than we've ever ever been even with waterboarding?:confused:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

celticlord said:
Except you have not established that yours is the higher moral ground.
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It is though, for mine takes into account sanctity of human life as well. We're able to understand and accept and forgive. Terrorists aren't in that regime. Their hatred has blinded them to reality, and prevents logical thought about the subject. We can see with eyes unclouded by hate, and act accordingly. We don't have to torture and we don't have to kill and we can show mercy because we are the betters. It doesn't take a lot to hate, but it takes a **** load of mercy to forgive. And to forgive is what it's all about, Jesus should have taught you that.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

talloulou said:
How are we not more moral now than we've ever ever been even with waterboarding?:confused:
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Torture takes you down a couple of pegs on the moral board.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
It is though, for mine takes into account sanctity of human life as well. We're able to understand and accept and forgive. Terrorists aren't in that regime. Their hatred has blinded them to reality, and prevents logical thought about the subject. We can see with eyes unclouded by hate, and act accordingly. We don't have to torture and we don't have to kill and we can show mercy because we are the betters. It doesn't take a lot to hate, but it takes a **** load of mercy to forgive. And to forgive is what it's all about, Jesus should have taught you that.
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1. I never claimed to be Christian.

2. Your position does not take into account the sanctity of all life, merely that of the terrorist.

3. You have not established that your view is "reality" as opposed to the terrorist's. What if yours is not the reality?

4. You are wrong about hatred and about forgiveness. Forgiveness is generally the easier task.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
Torture takes you down a couple of pegs on the moral board.
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Again...HOW????
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
Torture takes you down a couple of pegs on the moral board.
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I would think that war in general does that. When strangers from different lands start killing one another the water poured on the head seems relatively benign in comparison.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

celticlord said:
Again...HOW????
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Torture is the domain of despots, terrorists, gangsters, loansharks, not civilized people.
 
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