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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    That is what soldiers do Ikari, they risk their lives so that we can all be safe little ignoramuses in the Western nations who take their sacrifice for granted and wallow in denial about giving terrorists the same rights our soldiers have in a fantastical belief that if we treat terrorists better than they treat even their own kind, they will stop trying to kill us.
    Is that what you believe now? So how much are tickets to Truth Detector land? A magical, mystical place of lies and spins. Tea cups can be your main ride...spin, spin, spin.

    I am not being kept safe by an occupational war in Iraq, that has zero to do with me. Terrorism was never a huge threat to me, it doesn't impact my life that much. What it did was to allow for war that should never have happened. It allowed for expansion of the government beyond that which it should have done. It's got little partisan hacks running around shouting if you're not with us, you're against us and other nonsensical ignorant statements. Don't sit there and try to tell me that I'm sacrificing soldiers for my safety. My rights are not being defended in Iraq, my liberty is not at stake. The terrorists had no way of impacting those things, the government is the biggest threat in those regards. And they have used this little propaganda war to raise the shadow of horribly large, intrusive government into our lives. Those soldiers in Iraq should not be there. They should never have been called on to sacrifice themselves for this cause, for the cause has nothing to do with America's sovereignty or the "safety" of the People. I don't take that sacrifice for granted, I want to respect that resolve. I want to employ the military only when my freedom and liberty is at stake. My countrymen should sacrifice themselves for nothing less. Be given ever advantage in a fight, be reserved for only when true threats arise. Afghanistan fine, I could buy into that one at the beginning...everything else has been nothing short of cluster****. Perpetrated and proliferated by the likes who will claim my "safety".

    I'm well aware of my safety, and for the most part I can take care of myself. Terrorism isn't the threat you make it out to be. It's a constant, we'll never run out of terrorists. You have to be on guard and there are things which can be done to help curtail it. It will never be zero. We will eventually be attacked again, and we'll deal with it when that time comes. But don't sit there and try to pass off what our military men and women go through as some sacrifice for me or my safety. Talk about not respecting the commitment. Nothing I have is at stake in Iraq, never was. What is at stake is ever decreasing liberty caused by ever expansive and intrusive government. All at the hands of big government types who want nothing more than power to the federal government. The worst of which claim some form of conservatism as political ideology. Liars the whole lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    The only thing more fantastical than the above tripe is the notion that they died because of Bush. They died because the terrorist thugs were trying to kill as many of them as possible because cretins in the US called liberals and Democrats are known for whining for purely political purposes when some of our people get killed, will blame their own people for the deaths for purely political purposes and basically GAVE the terrorists their strategy for them. You donít believe me; READ their own words and those of Osama then!!

    Yet we walk through the valley of denial, we will let no FACTS, TRUTH or SACRIFICE deter us from our naive notions about how the world works.

    Carry on.
    Emotionalized tripe and nothing more. The only thing more fantastical than your verbal diarrhea here is the notion that Iraq had anything to do with the safety, freedom, or liberty of America. That's nothing more than propaganda, I hope myself never so dumb as to buy into it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Horrible to look at what we did before 9/11, with attacks on our ships, our barracks and yes one OTHER attack on the WTC... and what we did afterwards that resulted in... no attacks.

    I think your problem is that it shows the methods you seem to prefer showed a poor track record.
    I have a rock that scares away tigers. I saw a tiger once, then I got this rock. Now there are no more tigers.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    You may want to re-check your facts there dude.
    Let me see:

    1920
    Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.


    1975
    Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.


    1993
    Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

    1995
    April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)


    2001
    Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

    So that's 5 terrorist attacks on US State soil since the 1920's.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Horrible to look at what we did before 9/11, with attacks on our ships, our barracks and yes one OTHER attack on the WTC... and what we did afterwards that resulted in... no attacks.

    I think your problem is that it shows the methods you seem to prefer showed a poor track record.
    Wait, so your comments aren't about within our border but simply attacks on American's abroad?

    Since 9/11 we've had routinely attacks by terrorists upon our military and military installations and our embassy. Or do attacks on embassies, facilities, and troops only count for when it happens to Clinton.

    Or are you going to bring up Kohbar towers which wasn't American land, but was reportedly partially targeting Americans. Because if you wish to bring that up I'd point to the 2005 Amman Bombings.

    Sorry, by WHATEVER standard you want to push it, its not a good way of measuring things. From 1993 to September 10th, 2001 we had no attacks within our border. We did have attack on U.S. Lands (embassies), but we've had that in the past 8 years. We did have attacks on U.S. military vehicles, but we've had that in the past 8 years. We did have attacks on troop facilities, we've had that in the past 8 years. We did have attacks on non-US facilities that killed Americans, but we've had that too.

    You're massively mistaken if you think I prefer the Clinton method completely. Especially when I stated that nothing that I was stating meant Clinton's policies were any better than Bush's.

    But that's typical of you Mr. V. Someone dares disagree with you so naturally they must be a terrorist loving torture hating lefty fool regardless of any actual FACTS outside of disagreeing with you. If the option was "Bush's way" or "Clinton's way" and that was my only options I'd choose Bush's without a second hesitation. That said, NEITHER way is perfect or even near perfect and Bush's still needs a GREAT deal of fine tuning and has a GREAT deal of things I have issues with. I also have been on record numerous times in this forum to saying that many of the Bush administration actions HAVE gone about making us safer, however using the false, ignorant, ****ty attempt at logic by saying "we were attacked on 9/11 so clinton's policies are bad, we haven't been attacked since 9/11 so Bush's policies are good" is up there just below "God Told me so" in regards to the worst ways of attempting to prove that point.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Nothing is a 100% guarantee; but it continues to BEG the question, the alternative is to do what? Nothing?

    I am always amused how people can conveniently forget our mindsets right after the 9-11 attacks. But I am stunned how they can pretend that it never occurred or will never be repeated perhaps with even more devastation.

    Denial can do that to people.
    And you assume I have denial about how we felt after the 9/11 attacks....why?

    I have no issues with a large ramp up immediately after a devastating thing to be sure such doesn't snowball. However, it needs to be reduced back to a reasonable level in due order shortly after.

    You get mugged and have a knife put to your throat during it. After that point you get extremely paranoid. You get a massive home alarm system for your house that you've got set to go off at the slightest thing, you go out and register a BIG handgun and start carrying, you don't lave the house except during the day and even then its extremely rarely. All of these are reasonable reactions to having such a horrible event take place as you're not wanting it to repeat itself, especially that soon. You do all this in hopes of recovering to live your normal life in peace and actively without fear.

    However, if 8 years later you're still barely leaving your house except for essentials and you're still having to go reset your alarm constantly due to minor things tripping it and you still have this huge unwieldy gun that's probably not practical for personal self defense in the street you're being overly paranoid and foolish to the point that you've given up any sort of normal and none-frustrating life in exchange for your safety.

    In my mind, the smarter thing to do would be as your paranoia and confidence increases after a few months or a year you scale your alarm system back to a reasonable level so its not falsely going off constantly, you go out and maybe get a more practical easy to carry and simpler to fire gun, and you actually start living a normal life out and about instead of being a shut in.

    Same thing with this. Ramping things up massively in the short term after 9/11 was no problem to me. However, I expected those things to be stripped away a great deal as we moved farther away from it because the entire reason I thought they were there was to ensure the longevity of our freedom at the expense of some short term loss of it. And, in the end, we'd arrive at a place where we've learned some lessoned, fixed a few things (like removing the Gorelick Wall for example, or updating our surveillance law to the 20th century, or increasing our human intelligence), but return to a FREEDOM focused society.

    That hasn't happened. Instead, the security focused society has not subsided and in some instances increased. The amount of freedom we gave up has NOT been given back to us this far out.

    Do I want another 9/11 to happen? No. But I would rather take a 9/11 every 10 years and take the chance that it hits me than continuely go down a road where the very founding principle of America, FREEDOM, is stripped farther and farther away in the name of security.

    However, as old El Rushbo says so often, I reject the premise of your argument. I reject the premise that we HAVE to go over the top and full out to ridiculous levels of security to be able to prevent another 9/11. I believe a near equal amount of protection can be had through less freedom encroaching ways, and I believe that violating the very thing that is used as the reason we need to protect ourselves is counter productive. It is like buying security to keep ones money safe, but spending all of ones money on that security.

    No sir, you're absolutely mistaken. I've not forgot 9/11, nor how we felt at that time, nor do I have a problem with the things we did immediately proceeding. Its the fact that so many of the things that should've gone away over time remain and so many other things have been continued that I have an issue with long after 9/11.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    You don't live in the real world do you?

    You'd rather have people killed, DEAD...

    And you cannot name a single RIGHT lost during the Bush years... you actually made me sick
    "WHO" doesn't live in the real world? Got a barf bag?
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Because in the end, human is human. Terrorist or no, they are still human. I think we should work hard to limit torture as much as possible. There are too many different things which can get involved if we take it as standard operating procedure. And how good is the information? I'm sure from time to time you're bound to get something; does that ok the use of torture? Even if it catches some innocents in with it? The entire "there's a bomb going to explode, only torturing this terrorist will get you the information you need" scenario is ridiculously rare. And what's to say you have the right guy, or the information will be correct? It's too inconsistent, too many things can be exploited and abused. It's best to do our best to avoid it.

    Terrorists may do despicable acts, but that doesn't mean we have to reciprocate. We're better than they are, we can show mercy even to those whom wish us harm.



    But some humans need to be killed.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I have a rock that scares away tigers. I saw a tiger once, then I got this rock. Now there are no more tigers.
    That's such childish over simplification.

    Terrorist attack repeatedly, we treat them like criminals.

    Terrorist pull off 9/11

    We treat them much more harshly.

    No more attacks.

    Logic says, terrorist + harsh treatment = prevention.

    Unless of course, political sensibility is interjected... then reason goes out and emotion must be plugged in. Terrorist + any form of harsh treatment to save lives = politically incorrect.

    As several people have stated, mind boggingly so on here, they would rather terrorist succeed in killing innocent people then to "treat them harshly".
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    "WHO" doesn't live in the real world? Got a barf bag?
    Got a right you lost? No? Didn't think so.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    I would rather see that than the diminution of our rights and the loss of our moral standing and the safety of our citizens and military personnel abroad.



    Well this is great to hear. lets just hope that when it happens, they kill your friends and family members this time, instead of mine. Then lets see you exaggerated claims about rights and moral standings.
    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 04-22-09 at 08:53 AM.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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