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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Well thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion presented as fact.
    And that is somehow different from yours? Got irony?

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And how many lives of our soldiers pays that bill? How many trillions of dollars is enough? How many countries destroyed till your blood lust is satisfied? The terrorists hit us, it was sad. They took out 3,000 people; but we've killed well more since then. More of us, and well more Iraqi's and other people. We've destroyed the lives of countless civilians, is that not what we authorize our own action against? They came and blew up something of ours, killed our civilians, we get to retaliate? Do you take retaliation against us as just then? We went over there, blew up a bunch of their stuff, killed their civilians as well?
    That is what soldiers do Ikari, they risk their lives so that we can all be safe little ignoramuses in the Western nations who take their sacrifice for granted and wallow in denial about giving terrorists the same rights our soldiers have in a fantastical belief that if we treat terrorists better than they treat even their own kind, they will stop trying to kill us.

    The only thing more fantastical than the above tripe is the notion that they died because of Bush. They died because the terrorist thugs were trying to kill as many of them as possible because cretins in the US called liberals and Democrats are known for whining for purely political purposes when some of our people get killed, will blame their own people for the deaths for purely political purposes and basically GAVE the terrorists their strategy for them. You don’t believe me; READ their own words and those of Osama then!!

    Yet we walk through the valley of denial, we will let no FACTS, TRUTH or SACRIFICE deter us from our naive notions about how the world works.

    Carry on.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    No, I am just pointing out that if you say to the government "You can torture terrorists and deny them habeas corpus, but you cannot torture anyone else or deny them habeas corpus." Then you are giving the government the power to torture and deny habeas corpus to anyone the government labels as a terrorist. The only thing at that point protecting you from the government torturing you or denying you the right to challenge your accusers is that it has not chose to label you a terrorist.
    Fascinating fabrication; yet there are no facts to support such a delusional opinion.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    I would rather see that than the diminution of our rights and the loss of our moral standing and the safety of our citizens and military personnel abroad.
    You should be the poster child for Liberals Slippery and this should become and advertisement for why Liberals and Liberal Democrats should never obtain leadership positions in Government.

    I am sure the families of the 9-11 victims and the future victims will appreciate that you don't give a rat’s ass about their rights to live in peace and safety in this country as long as we can claim we held the moral high ground by not doing enough to prevent such tragedies.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    And what if no information is gained? What do you tell that person that you tortured? Sorry?
    What if information, as we have been told IS the case by those within the CIA and the former Vice President stated, does in fact save lives?

    I am amused by your “what if's” because they require the willing suspension of disbelief and one who willingly wallows in disbelief.

    Why is it you want so desperately to believe that what Cheney and the CIA said is false, that they are liars and the terrorists are just innocent victims they pulled off our streets?

    These aren't the facts, yet it requires one to believe they are in order to have such opinions.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    This is specious reasoning. There's no proof that's what did it. We didn't suffer a whole lot of terrorist attacks on the State's soil before hand; it was already a low probability event. You have to get a few sigma out before you can start making any form of claim.
    You may want to re-check your facts there dude.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    That's about as logical as saying that if I permit the government to prosecute and imprison murderers, then I'm permitting the government to prosecute and imprison anyone they label a murderer. And that the only thing protecting me from government prosecution and imprisonment is that it has not labeled me a murderer.

    No, what protects you from wrongful imprisonment and torture right now is that torture is illegal for everyone, and you have the right to challenge your accusers in the courts. You have legal rights, and the government is not above the law.

    However, by telling the government that they torture anyone they label as a terrorist suspect, you are placing the government outside of the law and all they have to do is label someone a terrorist suspect, and those protections no longer apply.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Did anybody bring up that we waterboard many of our own soldiers as part of training them to deal with interrogation?

    Buddies of mine have told me of being waterboarded in advanced training in the service. They said it was virtually impossible not to comply with whatever was being asked of them, but that it did them no lasting harm.

    If we do it to our own soldiers to toughen them up and prepare them for the worst, I have no problem with doing it to known terrorists if we reasonably believe doing so may prevent an attack.

    There's apparently a world of difference between waterboarding, and traditional "torture" such as splinting the fingernails, cutting off body parts, etc.

    G.
    Actually I mentioned it briefly

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I believe in results.

    8 years before 9/11 we treated Terror like a police problem, culminated in 9/11.

    8 years after 9/11 we used water boarding and other methods and have not been attacked once.

    Now we go back to the pre-9/11 methods? Seriously?
    HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE logic.

    On September 10th, 2001 you could've said the EXACT same thing about treating it like a "police problem" as you are doing now. EXACTLY the same thing. That doesn't make the way Clinton handled it any better, but that also doesn't in and of itself prove ANYTHING concerning the way we currently are going about it. Could it be a factor? Yes. But to act and claim like that is somehow some definitive proof that the way we're doing things is the best or that waterboardng/the way we're doing interrogations now is the reason for it is completely and fully idiotic and illogical.

    Correlation does not equal causation.

    This is the stupidest argument that pro-Bush people use to prop up the acts he's done since 9/11. We went 8 years without an attack within our borders under Clinton as well, does that mean on September 10th, 2001 Bill Clinton's way of handling terrorism was a good thing? Does that mean in 6 months if we get hit by a terrorist attack these same people are going to say that's unequivocal proof that Bush's policies failed?

    Give me a ****ing break, a ridiculous and pathetic argument.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I find it ironic that you have to fabricate arguments to make yours; one that requires the willing suspension of disbelief.

    There is a VAST difference between a Government that wants to stick it's hands into every facet of our lives and redistribute it's citizens wealth on what IT feels is best for the nation, it is a completely different one than a Government trying desperately to protect it's citizens from it's enemies.
    You don't get it. Tyrannies do not come about due to government protections for endangered species or progressive taxation. If that put nations on the road to tyranny, then every developed nation on earth would be a tyrannical dictatorship by now. Instead, and this is always the case, tyrannies come about when the citizens of a nation allow their government to operate outside of the law in exchange for promises of security.

    Any power placed in government will be abused at some point. It doesn't matter whether its defense contracts or welfare programs. Centralize anything, and there will be abuse. The problem here is that if you place government outside of the law, and you allow them to torture and deny habeas corpus to anyone they label as a terrorist suspect, then the consequences of its inevitable abuse is extremely dangerous for the preservation of liberty.

    If you don't get that, then thank God your not running anything.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Horrible to look at what we did before 9/11, with attacks on our ships, our barracks and yes one OTHER attack on the WTC... and what we did afterwards that resulted in... no attacks.

    I think your problem is that it shows the methods you seem to prefer showed a poor track record.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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