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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

  1. #461
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    The problem with people (like you) claim that it doesn't produce reliable results is that they don't understand how it works and therefore think that it is used as an only method.
    I don't think it is the only method used.
    Thanks for guessing though.

    The problem with people like you is that you think you know more about someone than the evidence at hand reveals. Heck, you people think you know things about people that are directly contrary to the evidence at hand.

    Good luck and thanks for playing "Guess what Simon is Thinking."
    If you work hard an are lucky you may receive one of several consolation prizes on your way out of the studio.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    The problem with people (like you) claim that it doesn't produce reliable results is that they don't understand how it works and therefore think that it is used as an only method.
    Problem with people like him (Thank God Obama isn't like him) is that they're dangerous to me and mine if left in charge.

    I have no trouble having the rest of the world see us a nation that will adopt a toture policy to protect its citizens. In the 17, and 1800's the Red Coats wouldn't stoop so low as to break ranks when fighting, and as a result many men died needless deaths. It wasn't until the British adopted scattered formations (too late for the American Revolutionary War) that they began to close the gap around the world.

    The American Civil war is another great example, the phalanx is yet another. Adopting superior techniques is paramount to a successful war machine. Does it mean that our men and women, if captured would be tortured? Well sure it does, but that has always been the case, and now we should be openly adopting the same stance. Our enemies MUST know, and be under no illusions that if we capture them, we're going to pull out their finger nails...

    If our citizens are kidnapped, they should know that America will reign hell on Earth in punishing those responsible.. There is nothing to be gained, but much to be lost by not taking full advantage of every possible intelligence gathering opportunity..


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
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  3. #463
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    There is nothing to be gained, but much to be lost by not taking full advantage of every possible intelligence gathering opportunity.
    the issue is that EITs may not even be all that useful when compared to other methods. If they're not more effective/efficient than other methods, then it would be a mistake to use them.

    You guys keep trying to argue against a case I am not making.
    I am flattered that you think about me so much. However, you guys aren't guessing correctly and I can't really return the favor.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    the issue is that EITs may not even be all that useful when compared to other methods. If they're not more effective/efficient than other methods, then it would be a mistake to use them.

    You guys keep trying to argue against a case I am not making.
    I am flattered that you think about me so much. However, you guys aren't guessing correctly and I can't really return the favor.
    And I say... That it doesn't matter if they not the best technique at any given moment. As long as you're sure you have a bad guy in your custody, what difference would it make? Bad guys don't get tea and crumpets, or good cop bad cop routines in my interrogation room. They get the mean and nasty ...all... day... long....

    I'm not trying to guess what you're saying, or thinking. You're essentially saying that becuase EIT's may not be the best method, that we shouldn't employ them. I ask why not? In the absence of information go with what has produced measurable results in the past. If you get no information so what? I don't care about the enemy, not one iota, not an ounce, they ARE the ENEMY afterall.


    Tim-
    Last edited by Hicup; 05-06-11 at 11:54 AM.
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  5. #465
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Holy thread necro batman

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    According to the IG report the practices were well defined. Also, according to the same source, the implementation of the practices varied from well defined policy so much that there were recommendations to the DoJ to look into some things.


    This begs the question. It assumes your conclusion as a premise.

    What's at contention is the relative usefulness of the EITs. If EITs are relatively useful when compared to the ITs then there may be a point to your question. However, if EITs are not shown to be any more useful, then your point made in the question is moot.
    It's not enough to show that EITs produce info--'cause that's not really in question--but it needs to be shown whether EITs are as useful as ITs. The IG report points out that EITs increase the production of intelligence reports. It also notes that quantity of reports is not the same thing as quality of information. As the CIA noted in their infamous KUBARK manual, time spent verifying false leads is counter-productive.

    Given the other issues associated with EITs, EITs would have to be shown to be superior to ITs before they would be a good choice. If EITs were only "as good" as ITs then there wouldn't be much to justify using EITs over ITs.


    You're begging the question again. You're assuming your conclusion as a premise again.
    You also have to consider the possibility that what you did may have cost people their lives because you wasted time breaking his knees instead of using a more effective method of acquiring information. OR that you cost people their lives because we had to waste time chasing down the bad leads the guy gave.


    You're begging the question again. You're assuming your conclusion as a premise again.
    The point in question is that harsh techniques may not be the fastest or most reliable method available. If you would have trouble sleeping, then perhaps you should use the best methods available. And it's not at all clear that EITs are even as useful as ITs, let alone better.



    ETA
    Oh yeah, your link is broken
    This can only be based on the premise, that standard techniques weren't used first. "Hey guys, let's start out with waterboarding first instead of a smoke and a beer." No doubt it never crossed their minds to just ask what the prisoner knew, they gagged him immediately and started the waterboarding.

    Does any reasonable person really believe that the CIA doesn't know how to interrogate someone, or that they didn't use EIT as a last resort? Pulllleazze!
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    And I say... That it doesn't matter if they not the best technique at any given moment.
    Because lives are on the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    As long as you're sure you have a bad guy in your custody, what difference would it make? Bad guys don't get tea and crumpets, or good cop bad cop routines in my interrogation room. They get the mean and nasty ...all... day... long....
    To me, imho, it's not about what the bad guys get, it's about the info that the good guys get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    You're essentially saying that becuase EIT's may not be the best method, that we shouldn't employ them. I ask why not?
    Because they have downsides that other methods don't have. Why use a methods that has greater costs and greater potential costs but with no assurance of being more effective when you can get the same or better results with less costly measures. [and no, I am not speaking about monetary costs.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    In the absence of information go with what has produced measurable results in the past.
    There are quite a number of methods that have "produced measurable results in the past." Why choose ones that have more baggage with no extra benefit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    If you get no information so what? I don't care about the enemy, not one iota, not an ounce, they ARE the ENEMY afterall.
    Tim-
    If you don't care about acquiring information then you're not really engaged in interrogation.
    I may be wrong.

  8. #468
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    This can only be based on the premise, that standard techniques weren't used first.
    No, it's not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    "Hey guys, let's start out with waterboarding first instead of a smoke and a beer." No doubt it never crossed their minds to just ask what the prisoner knew, they gagged him immediately and started the waterboarding.
    Actually, iirc, according the IG report this was the case fo Nashiri. I may be wrong. I'll have to look through it again. I haven't run an OCR on the doc yet, so it's not quickly searchable.

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Does any reasonable person really believe that the CIA doesn't know how to interrogate someone, or that they didn't use EIT as a last resort? Pulllleazze!
    According to the IG report, most of the seasoned interrogators had left the service for various reasons. They had to scramble around and find people who were not subject matter experts. They instead chose people who were experts in what they saw as related fields, psychologists and SERE instructors.
    I don't know if the IG counts as a reasonable person or not.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Simon -
    Because lives are on the line.
    Exactly!

    To me, imho, it's not about what the bad guys get, it's about the info that the good guys get.
    Yes, but until you can actually demonstrate that information gained from our techniques is poor, then you have no leg to stand on.

    Because they have downsides that other methods don't have. Why use a methods that has greater costs and greater potential costs but with no assurance of being more effective when you can get the same or better results with less costly measures
    What are the downsides? You keep suggesting that these other methods are superior, well, I would like very much for you to demonstrate that?

    There are quite a number of methods that have "produced measurable results in the past." Why choose ones that have more baggage with no extra benefit?
    Well, sure. tea and crumpets work when joe enemy is thirsty and hungry, maybe, but what about the guy that doesn't respond to said techniques?

    If you don't care about acquiring information then you're not really engaged in interrogation.
    No, what I mean is that the enemy isn't worth any consideration. If I can't extract information from them, so what? What does it matter that I made them feel uncomfortable in the process?


    Tim-
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    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Simon -

    Exactly!



    Yes, but until you can actually demonstrate that information gained from our techniques is poor, then you have no leg to stand on.



    What are the downsides? You keep suggesting that these other methods are superior, well, I would like very much for you to demonstrate that?



    Well, sure. tea and crumpets work when joe enemy is thirsty and hungry, maybe, but what about the guy that doesn't respond to said techniques?



    No, what I mean is that the enemy isn't worth any consideration. If I can't extract information from them, so what? What does it matter that I made them feel uncomfortable in the process?


    Tim-
    My point exactly.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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