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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    This is the same CIA that said Iraq was full of WMDs, right?
    Very useful one liner. Saddam admitted he played up the WMD capabilities of his country, to save face and intimidate Iran. Every western intelligence agency fell for it.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    According to the article, the restrictions on such use were very well defined.
    According to the IG report the practices were well defined. Also, according to the same source, the implementation of the practices varied from well defined policy so much that there were recommendations to the DoJ to look into some things.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Counter, what happens when we do not use such and learn later a preventable attack was carried out... do the families of the dead get to sue because we didn't do everything we could to prevent it?
    This begs the question. It assumes your conclusion as a premise.

    What's at contention is the relative usefulness of the EITs. If EITs are relatively useful when compared to the ITs then there may be a point to your question. However, if EITs are not shown to be any more useful, then your point made in the question is moot.
    It's not enough to show that EITs produce info--'cause that's not really in question--but it needs to be shown whether EITs are as useful as ITs. The IG report points out that EITs increase the production of intelligence reports. It also notes that quantity of reports is not the same thing as quality of information. As the CIA noted in their infamous KUBARK manual, time spent verifying false leads is counter-productive.

    Given the other issues associated with EITs, EITs would have to be shown to be superior to ITs before they would be a good choice. If EITs were only "as good" as ITs then there wouldn't be much to justify using EITs over ITs.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I'd break the knee caps of any terrorist that had possible information to save lives and sleep well at night. I'd have nightmares if I learned I didn't act and people died.
    You're begging the question again. You're assuming your conclusion as a premise again.
    You also have to consider the possibility that what you did may have cost people their lives because you wasted time breaking his knees instead of using a more effective method of acquiring information. OR that you cost people their lives because we had to waste time chasing down the bad leads the guy gave.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    The real question to ask is, could you sleep at night knowing that terrorist in custody knew about that bomb and we didn't get the information in time.
    I couldn't.
    You're begging the question again. You're assuming your conclusion as a premise again.
    The point in question is that harsh techniques may not be the fastest or most reliable method available. If you would have trouble sleeping, then perhaps you should use the best methods available. And it's not at all clear that EITs are even as useful as ITs, let alone better.



    ETA
    Oh yeah, your link is broken
    I may be wrong.

  3. #453
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    CNSNews.com - CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

    I guess this settles the debate on whether or not waterboarding works. Saved lives, caught terrorist. Good thing really.
    fixt link
    CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles | CNSnews.com

    What a lamo article.

    Read the actual report. It doesn't say what the author of this article concludes it does.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Can we afford not to?
    Until it can be shown that EITs are more useful than ITs, the question is, "Can we take a chance on EITs when so much is one th line?"
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I believe in results.
    8 years before 9/11 we treated Terror like a police problem, culminated in 9/11.
    8 years after 9/11 we used water boarding and other methods and have not been attacked once.
    Now we go back to the pre-9/11 methods? Seriously?
    We haven't had a terrorist attack sine we elected Obama.
    There. That's a result you can believe in.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Nothing is a 100% guarantee; but it continues to BEG the question, the alternative is to do what? Nothing?
    Presenting a false dilemma while arguing from ignorance doesn't mean anyone has to choose a horn or can't look around for something more.

    There is actually quite a body of work and a number of ways of educing information that don't involve EITs.

    1) Educing Information
    Interrogation: Science and Art Foundations for the Future
    Intelligence Science Board National Defense Intelligence College
    Washington, DC December 2006

    (in particular this section)
    KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation Review: Observations of an Interrogator – Lessons Learned and Avenues for Further Research

    2) KUBARK [CIA] Counterintelligence Interrogation
    July 1963

    3) Anything about Hanns Scharff
    "hanns scharff" - Google Search

    Hanns Scharff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Holy thread necro batman

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Interesting discussion by all.. Well most all members..

    My take is simple really. I see it like this. In all of my life, in every situation where I felt I was in danger, I had NO trouble at all identifying who it was that presented me with that danger, or where that danger was coming from.

    Muslim's walking down a street are not dangerous, however, Muslim's walking down a street chanting death to America, presents a level of danger to me and mine.

    Conversely, a Muslim involved in nefarious business, or in a position where they ought not to be, presents a danger to me and mine than a Muslim taking his kids out for ice cream.

    Philosophy - Muslim's who eat Ice Cream are ok, Muslim's who chant death to America are torture bound, and I have no trouble sleeping at night.

    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Until it can be shown that EITs are more useful than ITs, the question is, "Can we take a chance on EITs when so much is one th line?"
    The problem with people (like you) claim that it doesn't produce reliable results is that they don't understand how it works and therefore think that it is used as an only method.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    This is the same CIA that said Iraq was full of WMDs, right?
    The Iraq intel wasn't gathered through torture. Perhaps it should have been?

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