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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    Am I the only one who sees the irony in people who always seem to be more worried about the rights of terrorists, criminals, illegal aliens, and drug-addicts than they are about the rights of hard-working tax-paying citizens?

    1. The constitution does not apply to citizens, it applies to individuals on U.S. soil.

    2. In terms of the governments ability to torture you or deny you the right to trial, what separates you from a terrorist other than the government not labeling you as one?
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Can we afford not to?

    And how many lives of our soldiers pays that bill? How many trillions of dollars is enough? How many countries destroyed till your blood lust is satisfied? The terrorists hit us, it was sad. They took out 3,000 people; but we've killed well more since then. More of us, and well more Iraqi's and other people. We've destroyed the lives of countless civilians, is that not what we authorize our own action against? They came and blew up something of ours, killed our civilians, we get to retaliate? Do you take retaliation against us as just then? We went over there, blew up a bunch of their stuff, killed their civilians as well?

    When is enough enough? 9/11 was terrible, but they didn't kill as many as cars do in a year. We are tough, we are resilient, we are strong, we can overcome attacks like this and move on. There will always be some risk of terrorist attack, we can do what we can to limit it without infringing upon the rights of our own. But that number will not be zero, it never will be. You can not exhaust the supply of terrorists; so we deal with it. Years of war and torture of people and jails and death and destruction do not get us past this point. Even with 9/11, terrorists don't pose the threat to our lives that drunk driving does. Simple as that. Retaliate where appropriate, don't get bogged down in occupational wars and questionable military practices. We're better than that.
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Yes, Lyndon Johnson sure was lucky that Democrats are never criticized in anyway for lying about the justification for war, or any types of atrocities against enemies.
    If Lyndon Johnson were living in this century and faced with an al qaeda attack, then I'd consider how the world community might react. But since the two presidents of recent concern are Bush and Obama, I feel comfortable leaving the comparison to the two.


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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    It's only ironic if you take our positions wildly out of context and grossly misrepresent them.

    If the government has a person in their custody that has information concerning an impending terrorist attack, then yes, I trust them to "torture" that individual. If, however, the government wants to utilize torture in a manner not related to the aforementioned scenario I will not support it.
    So how would you know that torturing an individual actually prevented a terrorist attack other than "trusting the government" when they told you it did?

    How would you know that the individual being tortured actually had knowledge about an impending terrorist attack other than "trusting the government" when they told you they did?

    Tyranny always has a justification, they just always want you to trust them on it.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 04-21-09 at 07:25 PM.
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    1. The constitution does not apply to citizens, it applies to individuals on U.S. soil.

    2. In terms of the governments ability to torture you or deny you the right to trial, what separates you from a terrorist other than the government not labeling you as one?
    I'm really not sure what your point is here. Are you concerned that the government is mistreating terrorists? Or are you concerned that the government is unfairly labeling terrorists and leaving me alone?


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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    By definition, terrorist forfeit their rights, and if they are not American citizens, the Constitution doesn't apply to them ANYWAY.
    However, you already shown you don't give a damn if their terrorist, or if they're american citizens. You've already shown by your picture that you don't give a **** if they're a terrorist....if a U.S. citizen is accused of being a terrorist and is presumed to have information about a terrorist attack you've already shown you have NO problems COMPLETELY disregarding the constitution and their rights and torturing them because we can't afford another 9/11.

    I find that disturbing, just a few step under TOT advocating the internment and execution of United States Muslims if a nuclear weapon ever went off.

    A U.S. Citizen ACCUSED of terrorism should only be considered as forfeiting their rights after a fair trial and a guilty verdict.

    As a note, I have no issues with the methods we use in regards to the War on Terror but do not feel they should be "standard" rules of engagement but specifically to this conflict due to the rules of engagement set forth by our opponents. I'm uncomfortable with much of anything above water boarding being permissible and think there's a great much more our military needs to do to limit the most extreme methods to the most extreme cases with accountability and a few layers of assurance that the person being put through this has a near definitive likihood of having actionable intelligence. I do not think how we're going about it is the right way, but I also do not feel we need to do away with the practice all together in this conflict.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    I'm really not sure what your point is here. Are you concerned that the government is mistreating terrorists? Or are you concerned that the government is unfairly labeling terrorists and leaving me alone?

    No, I am just pointing out that if you say to the government "You can torture terrorists and deny them habeas corpus, but you cannot torture anyone else or deny them habeas corpus." Then you are giving the government the power to torture and deny habeas corpus to anyone the government labels as a terrorist. The only thing at that point protecting you from the government torturing you or denying you the right to challenge your accusers is that it has not chose to label you a terrorist.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 04-21-09 at 07:33 PM.
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    IMO until the documents showing the results of these techniques are released Obama and the left can blow it out their ass.

    The WH press guy today said that "they are not interested in releasing the documents (Cheney asked be released) at this time"
    Last edited by Triad; 04-21-09 at 08:09 PM.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Did you see this, MrVicchio, in today's Washington Post?

    Marc A. Thiessen - Enhanced Interrogations Worked - washingtonpost.com


    The CIA's Questioning Worked

    In releasing highly classified documents on the CIA interrogation program last week, President Obama declared that the techniques used to question captured terrorists "did not make us safer." This is patently false. The proof is in the memos Obama made public -- in sections that have gone virtually unreported in the media.

    (snip)

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    So how would you know that torturing an individual actually prevented a terrorist attack other than "trusting the government" when they told you it did?

    How would you know that the individual being tortured actually had knowledge about an impending terrorist attack other than "trusting the government" when they told you they did?

    Tyranny always has a justification, they just always want you to trust them on it.
    I don't have to disapprove of all government activities in order to rationalize my distrust and displeasure thereof. I acknowledge the government has a legitimate role in maintaining national security. "Torturing" terrorists in order to extract information pertinent to our national security falls under government purview and authority.

    Sure, the government could lie to me about who they are "torturing" or how effective it is or why they're doing it, but that is not a valid excuse to disallow such activity. Should we do away with the CIA or the NSA because the government might lie to us about how they're using it or how effective it is? It's our responsibility as citizens to monitor the government and the possibility that we may fail in this regard is not a sufficient negation of a policy's legitimacy.

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