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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Yet another "torture works" claim that has serious problems.

    CIA official: no proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks

    "The CIA inspector general in 2004 found that there was no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped the Bush administration thwart any "specific imminent attacks," according to recently declassified Justice Department memos. The IG's report is among several indications that the Bush administration's use of abusive interrogation methods was less productive than some former administration officials have claimed. President Bush told a September 2006 news conference that one plot, to attack a Los Angeles office tower, was "derailed" in early 2002 — before the harsh CIA interrogation measures were approved, contrary to those who claim that waterboarding revealed it. Last December, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Vanity Fair magazine that he didn't believe that intelligence gleaned from abusive interrogation techniques had disrupted any attacks on America."

    And on the topic of SERE:

    "The Bush administration erred by depending on a military training program, Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape, (SERE) to assess the risks that a suspected terrorist might face when being waterboarded. Individuals undergoing SERE training are obviously in a very different situation from detainees undergoing interrogation; SERE trainees know it is part of a training program," Bradbury wrote, borrowing from the IG report's conclusion.

    Waterboarding terrorist suspects also differed substantially from its limited use in the SERE program.
    Quoting from the IG report, Bradbury wrote, "The waterboard technique . . . was different from the technique described in the DOJ opinion and used in the SERE training . . . At the SERE school . . . the subject's airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency interrogator . . . applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose."
    Bradbury said the inspector general reported: "OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologist/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant."

    So even if you've been through SERE school, you haven't really been waterboarded.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Having you come on and bash the source instead of the info now thats... expected. Are you related to HDL?

    IT was the first source I found backing what cheney was saying... if it turns out bogus, by all means bring out the "truth", otherwise, all you have is... your usual shtick.
    Cheney was saying it--haven't we already determined anything coming out of his corrupt pie hole is bogus as hell?

    In all seriousness... Cheney was saying it, man.

    Cheney?! Dick.

    As much as I agree we need to move forward and not get tied down in some partisan war over all this... I still would like to see Cheney in an orange jumper doing the perp walk. Or at least 3 rounds with Binden--no holds barred.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I have no idea if it ever existed in reality. I've never been faced with it myself, but there's a lot of **** I've never been faced with.

    All I know is that if the hypothetical were real, and I were facing it, I'd use torture. I cannot in good faith denounce others for using what I myself would use if they are faced with such a situation in reality.

    And neither one of us can offer anything but conjecture regarding the actual existence or nonexistence of such scenarios nor can we offer anything substantial regarding how the terrorists would respond to being tortured in such a scenario.

    Like I said, I'm undecided on it. I'd need actual evidence one way or the other to support or denounce the practice.

    If you could somehow make an actual argument based on more than your questioning of the scenario's likelihood, perhaps I could be swayed. But if all you can put forth is the fact that you question it, or cannot see the situation where it would work, I will obviously remain undecided. What you can or cannot see as plausible has no bearing whatsoever on my decision-making. The fact that it works for you is all well and good, but it isn't exactly a persuasive argument.
    I think the statements by the conductors of torture techniques that torture does not yield useful information should be persuasive.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I think the statements by the conductors of torture techniques that torture does not yield useful information should be persuasive.
    Funny, I never considered you, WillRockwell, the "centrist", a thinker.

    You're handpicking your quotes. Funny, I seem to recall other "centrists" jumping all over Bush for handpicking intelligence. So what do you have to say about those "conductors of torture techniques" who claim that it does and has yielded useful information? Could they be right and the ones you cling to be wrong? Nah, anything that contradicts your emotions has to be a lie, right?
    Welfare (Food Stamps, WIC, etc...) are not entitlements. They are taxpayer funded handouts and shouldn't be called entitlements at all. Social Security and Veteran's benefits are 'Entitlements' because the people receiving them are entitled to them. They were earned and paid for by the recipients.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by P/N View Post
    Funny, I never considered you, WillRockwell, the "centrist", a thinker.

    You're handpicking your quotes. Funny, I seem to recall other "centrists" jumping all over Bush for handpicking intelligence. So what do you have to say about those "conductors of torture techniques" who claim that it does and has yielded useful information? Could they be right and the ones you cling to be wrong? Nah, anything that contradicts your emotions has to be a lie, right?
    How about if you link to an interrogator who stands behind the claim that torture yields useful data? I haven't seen that.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    How about if you link to an interrogator who stands behind the claim that torture yields useful data? I haven't seen that.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/us...detain.html?hp

    Even President Obama’s new director of national intelligence, Dennis C. Blair, wrote in a memorandum to his staff last week that “high value information came from interrogations in which these methods were used,”....

    I'd say that's a trustworthy source that the information gathered has been of "high value" given the fact that it's Obama's guy that's the source.

    At best, an honest person can only say that the reviews of waterboarding's efficacy are mixed.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/us...detain.html?hp




    I'd say that's a trustworthy source that the information gathered has been of "high value" given the fact that it's Obama's guy that's the source.

    At best, an honest person can only say that the reviews of waterboarding's efficacy are mixed.



    Are you doing the "lets make will disapear" trick?
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Are you doing the "lets make will disapear" trick?
    I'm of the belief that this whole debate on waterboarding needs to undergo a paradigm shift. From what I can tell, yes, it has yielded some high value information. What I'd love to know is the rate of valuable information it yields in comparison to non-torture techniques.

    An independent comprehensive study, devoid of emotionality and politics, is necessary to determine first it's efficacy, and then it's efficacy in comparison to more standard interrogation techniques. Then we need to determine the "value" of the data gleaned form each method.

    Until we know these comparative data, there is no way to argue for or against it in any substantial way.

    Let's say that all other techniques yield a higher rate of actionable intel, but most of it is very minor in nature. Now let's say that waterboarding yields a much smaller rate of actionable intel, but the stuff it does yield is hugely important. Then we could have a serious debate on the value of waterboarding.

    Conversely, if the rates are the same, and the value is the same, we would have to conclude that waterboarding is extraneous and totally unnecessary.

    Finally if the rates are lower for waterboarding and the value is at best equal, then we could say that it is detrimental to gathering valuable intel.


    Right now, no one can say any of these scenarios are the correct one because there has yet to be such an independent, unemotional, apolitical study performed.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I'm of the belief that this whole debate on waterboarding needs to undergo a paradigm shift. From what I can tell, yes, it has yielded some high value information. What I'd love to know is the rate of valuable information it yields in comparison to non-torture techniques.

    An independent comprehensive study, devoid of emotionality and politics, is necessary to determine first it's efficacy, and then it's efficacy in comparison to more standard interrogation techniques. Then we need to determine the "value" of the data gleaned form each method.

    Until we know these comparative data, there is no way to argue for or against it in any substantial way.

    Let's say that all other techniques yield a higher rate of actionable intel, but most of it is very minor in nature. Now let's say that waterboarding yields a much smaller rate of actionable intel, but the stuff it does yield is hugely important. Then we could have a serious debate on the value of waterboarding.

    Conversely, if the rates are the same, and the value is the same, we would have to conclude that waterboarding is extraneous and totally unnecessary.

    Finally if the rates are lower for waterboarding and the value is at best equal, then we could say that it is detrimental to gathering valuable intel.


    Right now, no one can say any of these scenarios are the correct one because there has yet to be such an independent, unemotional, apolitical study performed.




    do you think we would waterboard if it did not work? I think there is much we do not know.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    do you think we would waterboard if it did not work?
    I think the government does a lot of **** that doesn't work. It's a given that there is a possibility waterboarding is not effective simply because the government is doing it.

    I think there is much we do not know.
    True, which is why I think a study is necessary. I don't really need to know the details so long as I know that it is effective.

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