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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Well we also ruled that german soldiers being held in china after the war were not eligable for constituional rights. We recently changed our minds so its not as black an white as you are making it out to be either.
    Fair enough. Things aren't static, that's for sure. I think waterboarding is torture though, it's specifically designed to be torture. I think what you trained through is a form of torture. Not that it's bad or you shouldn't prepare or train that way. If caught by the enemy, you could be subjected to torture. So you might as well know what it is that you're going against. As for its use against terrorists, it appears to me that the attempt is to use torture as a standard device. I don't like to speak often in absolutes, maybe there could be appropriate use. But I don't want to make it standard, and I do think we should recognize what it is. The whole "not torture" thing seems to me to be propaganda to lessen our opinion of what waterboarding is so that we can more easily excuse the use of it. But I don't think we should easily excuse the use, I think we should use it extremely rarely if at all and only under extreme conditions. Recognize and accept what it is though, because it's important in the regulation of it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Fair enough. Things aren't static, that's for sure. I think waterboarding is torture though, it's specifically designed to be torture. I think what you trained through is a form of torture. Not that it's bad or you shouldn't prepare or train that way. If caught by the enemy, you could be subjected to torture. So you might as well know what it is that you're going against. As for its use against terrorists, it appears to me that the attempt is to use torture as a standard device. I don't like to speak often in absolutes, maybe there could be appropriate use. But I don't want to make it standard, and I do think we should recognize what it is. The whole "not torture" thing seems to me to be propaganda to lessen our opinion of what waterboarding is so that we can more easily excuse the use of it. But I don't think we should easily excuse the use, I think we should use it extremely rarely if at all and only under extreme conditions. Recognize and accept what it is though, because it's important in the regulation of it.
    If only we had a American Idol modeled waterboard quarries for every suspect.
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    We don't even do it to terrorist suspects multiple times per day, every day, over a month or two time span so why would we do it to our soldiers for training?
    Was there not news of someone who was waterboarded over 180 times over the span of a few months?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    A response to this.
    what doesn't make sense to ya?




    Maybe this is the part? "So if we now train our guys to resist even more radical torture methods, we can now torture our captives of invasion a little harder? "

    That's what I meant to say
    If this is what you meant to say, it still makes little sense. I don't think that was the argument made by Old Reliable either; he was illustrating that waterboarding hardly meets the definition of torture if we subject our own troops to the method so they can experience.

    Fascinating how you willingly avoid those assertions.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Was there not news of someone who was waterboarded over 180 times over the span of a few months?
    Come on Ikari, for someone so mistrustful of the government and the media and such I figured you wouldn't start making accusations of things without actual facts.

    The original reports by the media were misleading. Whether it was intentional or just sloppy ****ty reporting is debatable. The original reports gave the impression exactly as you presented it...numerous long sessions of waterboarding every time over a few months.

    In reality, each number in the count is a "pour" for 10 to 40 seconds. Essentially, 180 waterboards in a month assuming that each one was at the maximum of 40 seconds would be a shade over 2 hours in length in a single months time and that was only known to be done to one guy which was unquestionably a terrorist. Essentially, six 20 minute sessions in a months time or if you wanted to do it every day 4 minutes a day. Again, not stating its "right" or not, but its a COMPLETELY different picture than the media tried to paint at first.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Come on Ikari, for someone so mistrustful of the government and the media and such I figured you wouldn't start making accusations of things without actual facts.

    The original reports by the media were misleading. Whether it was intentional or just sloppy ****ty reporting is debatable. The original reports gave the impression exactly as you presented it...numerous long sessions of waterboarding every time over a few months.

    In reality, each number in the count is a "pour" for 10 to 40 seconds. Essentially, 180 waterboards in a month assuming that each one was at the maximum of 40 seconds would be a shade over 2 hours in length in a single months time and that was only known to be done to one guy which was unquestionably a terrorist. Essentially, six 20 minute sessions in a months time or if you wanted to do it every day 4 minutes a day. Again, not stating its "right" or not, but its a COMPLETELY different picture than the media tried to paint at first.
    Ok, that sounds reasonable. Still...I'd rather avoid it. I don't know if I would 100% trust their insistence that it was done from 10-40 seconds.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    If this is what you meant to say, it still makes little sense. I don't think that was the argument made by Old Reliable either; he was illustrating that waterboarding hardly meets the definition of torture if we subject our own troops to the method so they can experience.

    Fascinating how you willingly avoid those assertions.
    Ok.. when you learn Karate.. Do you beat the **** out of your partner? Or do you train with him? Now when you meet Mr. Mugger do you train with him or use the full extent of your power?
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Torture is but one tool; we weren't pressed for time, and we had our guy in there befriending Saddam.
    Oh I see, your standard is that we have to be pressed for time. But isn't that a big risk? I mean unless you think torture results in 100% accurate intel, then at a moment when you are pressed for time you will probably get bad information which you have to waste precious time finding out it was bad info. Now, if you'd like to claim that torture always or almost always results in accurate info then why waste time on other means of interrogation? Just go right for what works best? So again, with something so important I ask agian, why didn't we torture Saddam?
    Why don't we torture anyone who needs to be interrogated, including your everyday criminal?

    This isn't always possible.
    Sometime torture may be necessary... just like war... which is the ultimate torture... No?
    No, I don't think war is the ultimate torture.
    Why isn't it always possible?
    It's never necessary to start a war.

    Bombings at odd and all hours, overwhelming force, serious injury, blasting noise to deprive the enemy of sleep... and as this is torturous... Our Dear Capitulator should simply BAN war.
    That's kind of a childish but I'll play along. If it were possible then yes, we should ban war.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Given that by your own admission you have not experienced waterboarding, this statement is beyond your competence to make.
    I do however know people who have taken SERE training.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Well because obviously if a guy you think is a prick and you disagree with is agreeing to do something to actually help people that is "torture" its going to be an entertaining thing worthy of multiple repeat viewing by you.

    However, if its done to someone that is 100% known to have been involved with terrorism and is done in hopes of getting information that can be used to stop further terrorism, it is a horrible crime against humanity that needs to have dozens of people executed or put in prison for life for.

    Come on Rev, how could you not know that.
    Wow, you really advance this as an argument? One guy agrees to be waterboarded for entertainment and of course to help his waxing ratings and the other is a prisoner.

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