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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Obviously it makes people "talk". But, expert after expert agree that anything resulted from torture is not dependable. One of Bush's excuses to invade Iraq was info gotten from one man from torture. And it was found to be wrong. Just like every single one of all his BS reasons to invade a country that didn't do anything to us.
    LOL... no torture doesn't work; nothing is perfect, but coercion has proven itself to work. It has already saved lives... yet folks simply close their ears and eyes and claim otherwise.

    In a related vein, I was in a former Commi country where theft is the national sport... well, one of the foremen used some coercive methods to find out who was involved stealing valuable property... and it worked. With hardened criminals and nut-jobs it may take a little or a lot more coercion... but they do provide information... and if you have some already... you can leverage it to get more. It works... isolation, fear, uncomfortable circumstances... the choice between uncomfortable circumstances and comfortable circumstances...

    Bush gave countless reasons to go into Iraq... and the press crapped on him for it.

    CRG: Dr David Kay's Testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee
    Quote:
    All I can say is if you read the total body of intelligence in the last 12 to 15 years that flowed on Iraq, I quite frankly think it would be hard to come to a conclusion other than Iraq was a gathering, serious threat to the world with regard to WMD.

    Kay: ...after 1998 it became a regime that was totally corrupt. Individuals were out for their own protection. And in a world where we know others are seeking WMD, the likelihood at some point in the future of a seller and a buyer meeting up would have made that a far more dangerous country than even we anticipated with what may turn out not to be a fully accurate estimate.
    In other words... we might have been lucky.

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 04-23-09 at 08:52 AM.
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Obviously it makes people "talk". But, expert after expert agree that anything resulted from torture is not dependable. One of Bush's excuses to invade Iraq was info gotten from one man from torture. And it was found to be wrong. Just like every single one of all his BS reasons to invade a country that didn't do anything to us.
    I wonder how much info the UAE prince got by, shoveing sand in his captives mouth, eyes, nose ( I`m sure the lungs got a little), followed by a bare assed whipping with a nail in a board, then running over the guy ,several times, with an SUV ( I thought that part fell short of torture since the guy was laying in soft sand). I think the Prince was related to the guy he was tortureing, so maybe none of the above falls under the parameters of,"what is torture". Anyway my point is... "YES...YES, I did it, I`m sure I did it, please stop the torture.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    In a related vein, I was in a former Commi country where theft is the national sport... well, one of the foremen used some coercive methods to find out who was involved stealing valuable property... and it worked. With hardened criminals and nut-jobs it may take a little or a lot more coercion... but they do provide information... and if you have some already... you can leverage it to get more. It works... isolation, fear, uncomfortable circumstances... the choice between uncomfortable circumstances and comfortable circumstances...

    .
    Yeah in in that Commi country that you admire so much for torturing people, those torture sessions NEVER got false confessions did they?

    But then that would get facts in the way of your dream of torturing people.

    If torturing can elicit FALSE confessions, then torture doesn't work all the time either.
    Last edited by TheNextEra; 04-23-09 at 11:22 AM.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    All these "no torture" people talk talk talk, but it's easy to say you don't support "evil torture".

    Put them on the spot, say.. family members held hostage somewhere with a deadline, and give them one bad guy with the info to save their families...

    They'd be waterboarding, knee capping and breaking fingers too.


    It's all PC posturing, they HAVE to be against torture, because they cannot imagine inflicting pain on anyone. They believe all you have to do is reason with the bad guys and they'll come around and do the right thing. It's a weakness those inclined to be highly emotional tend to have.

    But that's from the safety of their computers. Put them on the spot, and watch them change their tunes. (Unless they really are willing to let people die just to avoid hurting someone... which is really scary)
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    All these "no torture" people talk talk talk, but it's easy to say you don't support "evil torture".

    Put them on the spot, say.. family members held hostage somewhere with a deadline, and give them one bad guy with the info to save their families...

    They'd be waterboarding, knee capping and breaking fingers too.


    It's all PC posturing, they HAVE to be against torture, because they cannot imagine inflicting pain on anyone. They believe all you have to do is reason with the bad guys and they'll come around and do the right thing. It's a weakness those inclined to be highly emotional tend to have.

    But that's from the safety of their computers. Put them on the spot, and watch them change their tunes. (Unless they really are willing to let people die just to avoid hurting someone... which is really scary)
    you are posing a scenario from the movies and television which, to my knowledge, has never occured, and are using it as a general justification for torture. If a 24 type ticking time bomb situation really existed, don't you think a terrorist could hold out till the bomb went off? And that's the best justification you have.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    All these "no torture" people talk talk talk, but it's easy to say you don't support "evil torture".

    Put them on the spot, say.. family members held hostage somewhere with a deadline, and give them one bad guy with the info to save their families...

    They'd be waterboarding, knee capping and breaking fingers too.


    It's all PC posturing, they HAVE to be against torture, because they cannot imagine inflicting pain on anyone. They believe all you have to do is reason with the bad guys and they'll come around and do the right thing. It's a weakness those inclined to be highly emotional tend to have.

    But that's from the safety of their computers. Put them on the spot, and watch them change their tunes. (Unless they really are willing to let people die just to avoid hurting someone... which is really scary)
    LOL

    You are spot on. IMO, it boils down to individual moral justification.

    We can napalm an entire village, but we can't slap a guy in the head with a shoe.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    you are posing a scenario from the movies and television which, to my knowledge, has never occured, and are using it as a general justification for torture. If a 24 type ticking time bomb situation really existed, don't you think a terrorist could hold out till the bomb went off? And that's the best justification you have.



    So if we had the one of the hijackers before 911. There would be no use in trying to extract information by any means neccesary?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Yeah in in that Commi country that you admire so much for torturing people, those torture sessions NEVER got false confessions did they?
    I'm not saying you will get perfect results... but you will get results that are useful. To say otherwise is pure BS.
    But then that would get facts in the way of your dream of torturing people.
    Nice try.
    We don't dream about torturing, and in fact it would be great if we could all live in peace without militarism, police or secretive agencies, but this is not Alice in Wonderland.

    To save lives, this coercive option should never be taken off the table; it has psychological effects even when not used... The "subject of interest" just might fear coercion and cough up the goodies...
    ...and...
    ... what makes you think non-coercive methods provide perfect and abundant intel?

    The Fairy Godmother?

    If torturing can elicit FALSE confessions, then torture doesn't work all the time either.
    I agree, but it doesn't mean it should be removed as a possible technique as we never know what ills will face us...
    ...and...
    Obama releasing our techniques is the definition of "Bad Judgment", and "Incompetence".

    We seem far weaker today than on Sept. 10, 2001.

    .
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    So if we had the one of the hijackers before 911. There would be no use in trying to extract information by any means neccesary?
    Well one, its rather illogical to try to make a choice AFTER the fact. Hindsight is 20/20, etc. For example AFTER THE FACT we would know this man was a hijacker of 9/11 and therefore definitly had knowledge and therefore definitely know we could potentially prevent the attack that we know would cost 3000 lives and untold damage.

    We wouldn't know that BEFORE hand.

    But taking a similar scenario. We aren't currently at war with anyone. We hear a lot of chatter about a potential attack. We're find a guy we think may know information.

    For me...

    I'd say if we were about 95% or more sure he had significant actionable intelligence on something massive and was not a citizen I would not have much issue with doing what was needed to get the information.

    If we were 80% sure he had significant actionable intelligence on something large and was not a citizen I would have little issue with things such as waterboarding or some of the other more "extreme" interrogation techniques we've used.

    If its under that 80% threshold, or if he's a citizen who has not had a fair trial, or if its the info he is believe to have isn't significant enough to likely help, then anything beyond what we normally do in regards to criminal interrogations.

    I'd rather have a higher chance to die due to a terrorist attack happening on our soil once every 5-10 years than have the United States become a country contrary to its founding beliefs, philosophies, and documents in the name of safety.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    All these "no torture" people talk talk talk, but it's easy to say you don't support "evil torture".

    Put them on the spot, say.. family members held hostage somewhere with a deadline, and give them one bad guy with the info to save their families...

    They'd be waterboarding, knee capping and breaking fingers too.


    It's all PC posturing, they HAVE to be against torture, because they cannot imagine inflicting pain on anyone. They believe all you have to do is reason with the bad guys and they'll come around and do the right thing. It's a weakness those inclined to be highly emotional tend to have.

    But that's from the safety of their computers. Put them on the spot, and watch them change their tunes. (Unless they really are willing to let people die just to avoid hurting someone... which is really scary)
    Since we're going improbable scenario, would you torture your own daughter to save the lives of other people? Let's say we have an equally improbable scenario as you posed here. Somehow, it can either be your daughter is in on it, or you're being held captive by some bad guys; whatever...it's all equally unlikely. But it comes down to the only way you can find out information on a bomb hidden in a building occupied by even hundreds of people is to torture your own daughter. Would you do it?
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