CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

EgoffTib said:

Like ending them? Ending lives to save lives seems futile. All life is important, not just the lives of Americans.

So what happens when no vital information is extracted? Then you have beaten someone for days and nothing was gained. But that's okay, because it's only Americans that count, right?

I care for the comfort of all people, not just those who were born in my country by chance.

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You really think this is "just about Americans"?

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SouthernDemocrat said:

Am I the only one that sees the irony in many of those that scream fascism, tyranny, and socialism with every bailout, environmental protection, or social safety-net, are also some of the biggest defenders of government sanctioned torture, denial of habeas corpus, and warrantless wiretaps?

You don't trust the government to bail out a bank, but you trust them with torture? You don't trust the government to administer say, unemployment extensions, but you trust them with selectively denying habeas corpus?

You guys that defend this crap are the very enablers of tyranny and you don't even know it.

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It's only ironic if you take our positions wildly out of context and grossly misrepresent them.

If the government has a person in their custody that has information concerning an impending terrorist attack, then yes, I trust them to "torture" that individual. If, however, the government wants to utilize torture in a manner not related to the aforementioned scenario I will not support it.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Grateful Heart said:

You know, the more I've thought about this issue the more I become convinced that had a President Obama been president during a major terrorist attack and had it been a Democratic administration interrogating these captured al qaeda suspects... the world community would never blink an eye about any of this.

No doubt in my mind. This whole 'torture' issue has been and always was a Bush bashing hate-fest. Nothing more.

:doh

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Yes, Lyndon Johnson sure was lucky that Democrats are never criticized in anyway for lying about the justification for war, or any types of atrocities against enemies. :roll:

If Obama did everything Bush did, he would be as universally disliked and as unpopular as Bush was. It is what Bush did while in office that made him so unpopular at home and abroad.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

SouthernDemocrat said:

Am I the only one that sees the irony in many of those that scream fascism, tyranny, and socialism with every bailout, environmental protection, or social safety-net, are also some of the biggest defenders of government sanctioned torture, denial of habeas corpus, and warrantless wiretaps?

You don't trust the government to bail out a bank, but you trust them with torture? You don't trust the government to administer say, unemployment extensions, but you trust them with selectively denying habeas corpus?

You guys that defend this crap are the very enablers of tyranny and you don't even know it.

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By definition, terrorist forfeit their rights, and if they are not American citizens, the Constitution doesn't apply to them ANYWAY.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

EgoffTib said:

Well thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion presented as fact.

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Thanks once again for taking the time to point out that message boards posts must always be factual statements... and never matters of opinion, speculation, or belief.

By the way, when a poster says 'I'm convinced' or 'There's no doubt in my mind,' that's a clear indication that an opinion is coming.

There's no doubt in my mind, for instance, that you often go off on irrelevant tangents. That does mean I'm stating it as a fact.

:2wave:

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Grateful Heart said:

Am I the only one who sees the irony in people who always seem to be more worried about the rights of terrorists, criminals, illegal aliens, and drug-addicts than they are about the rights of hard-working tax-paying citizens?

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1. The constitution does not apply to citizens, it applies to individuals on U.S. soil.

2. In terms of the governments ability to torture you or deny you the right to trial, what separates you from a terrorist other than the government not labeling you as one?

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MrVicchio said:

Can we afford not to?

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And how many lives of our soldiers pays that bill? How many trillions of dollars is enough? How many countries destroyed till your blood lust is satisfied? The terrorists hit us, it was sad. They took out 3,000 people; but we've killed well more since then. More of us, and well more Iraqi's and other people. We've destroyed the lives of countless civilians, is that not what we authorize our own action against? They came and blew up something of ours, killed our civilians, we get to retaliate? Do you take retaliation against us as just then? We went over there, blew up a bunch of their stuff, killed their civilians as well?

When is enough enough? 9/11 was terrible, but they didn't kill as many as cars do in a year. We are tough, we are resilient, we are strong, we can overcome attacks like this and move on. There will always be some risk of terrorist attack, we can do what we can to limit it without infringing upon the rights of our own. But that number will not be zero, it never will be. You can not exhaust the supply of terrorists; so we deal with it. Years of war and torture of people and jails and death and destruction do not get us past this point. Even with 9/11, terrorists don't pose the threat to our lives that drunk driving does. Simple as that. Retaliate where appropriate, don't get bogged down in occupational wars and questionable military practices. We're better than that.

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SouthernDemocrat said:

Yes, Lyndon Johnson sure was lucky that Democrats are never criticized in anyway for lying about the justification for war, or any types of atrocities against enemies. :roll:

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If Lyndon Johnson were living in this century and faced with an al qaeda attack, then I'd consider how the world community might react. But since the two presidents of recent concern are Bush and Obama, I feel comfortable leaving the comparison to the two.

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Ethereal said:

It's only ironic if you take our positions wildly out of context and grossly misrepresent them.

If the government has a person in their custody that has information concerning an impending terrorist attack, then yes, I trust them to "torture" that individual. If, however, the government wants to utilize torture in a manner not related to the aforementioned scenario I will not support it.

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So how would you know that torturing an individual actually prevented a terrorist attack other than "trusting the government" when they told you it did?

How would you know that the individual being tortured actually had knowledge about an impending terrorist attack other than "trusting the government" when they told you they did?

Tyranny always has a justification, they just always want you to trust them on it.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

SouthernDemocrat said:

1. The constitution does not apply to citizens, it applies to individuals on U.S. soil.

2. In terms of the governments ability to torture you or deny you the right to trial, what separates you from a terrorist other than the government not labeling you as one?

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I'm really not sure what your point is here. Are you concerned that the government is mistreating terrorists? Or are you concerned that the government is unfairly labeling terrorists and leaving me alone?

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:

By definition, terrorist forfeit their rights, and if they are not American citizens, the Constitution doesn't apply to them ANYWAY.

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However, you already shown you don't give a damn if their terrorist, or if they're american citizens. You've already shown by your picture that you don't give a **** if they're a terrorist....if a U.S. citizen is accused of being a terrorist and is presumed to have information about a terrorist attack you've already shown you have NO problems COMPLETELY disregarding the constitution and their rights and torturing them because we can't afford another 9/11.

I find that disturbing, just a few step under TOT advocating the internment and execution of United States Muslims if a nuclear weapon ever went off.

A U.S. Citizen ACCUSED of terrorism should only be considered as forfeiting their rights after a fair trial and a guilty verdict.

As a note, I have no issues with the methods we use in regards to the War on Terror but do not feel they should be "standard" rules of engagement but specifically to this conflict due to the rules of engagement set forth by our opponents. I'm uncomfortable with much of anything above water boarding being permissible and think there's a great much more our military needs to do to limit the most extreme methods to the most extreme cases with accountability and a few layers of assurance that the person being put through this has a near definitive likihood of having actionable intelligence. I do not think how we're going about it is the right way, but I also do not feel we need to do away with the practice all together in this conflict.

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Grateful Heart said:

I'm really not sure what your point is here. Are you concerned that the government is mistreating terrorists? Or are you concerned that the government is unfairly labeling terrorists and leaving me alone?

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No, I am just pointing out that if you say to the government "You can torture terrorists and deny them habeas corpus, but you cannot torture anyone else or deny them habeas corpus." Then you are giving the government the power to torture and deny habeas corpus to anyone the government labels as a terrorist. The only thing at that point protecting you from the government torturing you or denying you the right to challenge your accusers is that it has not chose to label you a terrorist.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

IMO until the documents showing the results of these techniques are released Obama and the left can blow it out their ass.

The WH press guy today said that "they are not interested in releasing the documents (Cheney asked be released) at this time"

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Did you see this, MrVicchio, in today's Washington Post?

Marc A. Thiessen - Enhanced Interrogations Worked - washingtonpost.com


The CIA's Questioning Worked

In releasing highly classified documents on the CIA interrogation program last week, President Obama declared that the techniques used to question captured terrorists "did not make us safer." This is patently false. The proof is in the memos Obama made public -- in sections that have gone virtually unreported in the media.

(snip)

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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

SouthernDemocrat said:

So how would you know that torturing an individual actually prevented a terrorist attack other than "trusting the government" when they told you it did?

How would you know that the individual being tortured actually had knowledge about an impending terrorist attack other than "trusting the government" when they told you they did?

Tyranny always has a justification, they just always want you to trust them on it.

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I don't have to disapprove of all government activities in order to rationalize my distrust and displeasure thereof. I acknowledge the government has a legitimate role in maintaining national security. "Torturing" terrorists in order to extract information pertinent to our national security falls under government purview and authority.

Sure, the government could lie to me about who they are "torturing" or how effective it is or why they're doing it, but that is not a valid excuse to disallow such activity. Should we do away with the CIA or the NSA because the government might lie to us about how they're using it or how effective it is? It's our responsibility as citizens to monitor the government and the possibility that we may fail in this regard is not a sufficient negation of a policy's legitimacy.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:

CNSNews.com - CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

I guess this settles the debate on whether or not waterboarding works. Saved lives, caught terrorist. Good thing really.

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What CNS News printed flies in the face of what many in the intelligence community believe. The CIA is designed to do spying, not torture people. When they torture people, then fewer agents are available for classic intel techniques, which makes attacks on the US more likely, not less likely.

Interview with CIA agent.

In addition, engaging in torture tends to make the subjects say anything to get the torture to stop, which results in a lot of false information being produced.

Torture from a military perspective.

So, how do we know that another 911 was prevented? Why is only CNS News making that statement, and not the media in general? Is it because the media in general doesn't buy it, and that CNS News possibly got phony information passed to them that was produced by someone wanting to stop his torture? These are important questions to ask.

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MrVicchio said:

Define torture.

To me, using whatever means necessary to save lives and stopping is not torture.

Beating some one for days for no reason... that's torture.

Being cruel, hurtful... causing pain for no legitimate purpose... that's torture.

Needing to save 1, 10, 1,000 or more lives and having to cause someone discomfort, or yes, even pain. Well, they made the choice to be a part of such events, we need to stop them.

That's the difference between torture, and extracting vital information.

All of you, EACH of you "But we cannot torture" people always leave out the fact the people being subjected to such... are terrorist, that desire to kill your fellow man. Why do you care more for the comfort of such people over the lives of innocent people?

I'll never ever understand that.

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Fortunately, the definition has already been settled and it's not your opinion. Waterboarding was considered torture and therefore illegal before the Bush admin and after.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:

Fortunately, the definition has already been settled and it's not your opinion. Waterboarding was considered torture and therefore illegal before the Bush admin and after.

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Fortunantly eh? If there is another terrorist attack, killing hundreds, you can rest well knowing they died because no one was... tortured.

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Ethereal said:

No one's interested in swaying the minds of rabid partisans.

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Then why does FOX NEWS exist?

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Grateful Heart said:

Am I the only one who sees the irony in people who always seem to be more worried about the rights of terrorists, criminals, illegal aliens, and drug-addicts than they are about the rights of hard-working tax-paying citizens?

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Why does your side of the issue always say this nonsense? Who said anyone seems to be more worried about the rights of terrorists, criminals, illegal aliens, and drug-addicts than they are about the rights of hard-working tax-paying citizens? I think that protecting the rights of EVERYONE should be our goal. Otherwise they are not inherent rights, they become US citizens rights.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

SouthernDemocrat said:

Am I the only one that sees the irony in many of those that scream fascism, tyranny, and socialism with every bailout, environmental protection, or social safety-net, are also some of the biggest defenders of government sanctioned torture, denial of habeas corpus, and warrantless wiretaps?

You don't trust the government to bail out a bank, but you trust them with torture? You don't trust the government to administer say, unemployment extensions, but you trust them with selectively denying habeas corpus?

You guys that defend this crap are the very enablers of tyranny and you don't even know it.

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I'm skeptical that something that causes NO bodily harm or physical damage falls under the guidelines of torture. I think there's lots of unwarranted hysteria.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:

Fortunately, the definition has already been settled and it's not your opinion. Waterboarding was considered torture and therefore illegal before the Bush admin and after.

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Then why did congress vote on this issue in Feb. 2008?

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MrVicchio said:

Can we afford not to?

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I would rather see that than the diminution of our rights and the loss of our moral standing and the safety of our citizens and military personnel abroad.

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Ethereal said:

It's only ironic if you take our positions wildly out of context and grossly misrepresent them.

If the government has a person in their custody that has information concerning an impending terrorist attack, then yes, I trust them to "torture" that individual. If, however, the government wants to utilize torture in a manner not related to the aforementioned scenario I will not support it.

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And what if no information is gained? What do you tell that person that you tortured? Sorry?

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

SouthernDemocrat said:

No, I am just pointing out that if you say to the government "You can torture terrorists and deny them habeas corpus, but you cannot torture anyone else or deny them habeas corpus." Then you are giving the government the power to torture and deny habeas corpus to anyone the government labels as a terrorist. The only thing at that point protecting you from the government torturing you or denying you the right to challenge your accusers is that it has not chose to label you a terrorist.

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That's about as logical as saying that if I permit the government to prosecute and imprison murderers, then I'm permitting the government to prosecute and imprison anyone they label a murderer. And that the only thing protecting me from government prosecution and imprisonment is that it has not labeled me a murderer.

:shock: