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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Until the CIA comes out and says, - we got no actionable intelligence from our interrogation until right after we waterboarded him - the claim is speacious at best. What that article says to me is that they used a LOT of different techniques.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    Why is torture an option?
    Define torture.

    To me, using whatever means necessary to save lives and stopping is not torture.

    Beating some one for days for no reason... that's torture.

    Being cruel, hurtful... causing pain for no legitimate purpose... that's torture.

    Needing to save 1, 10, 1,000 or more lives and having to cause someone discomfort, or yes, even pain. Well, they made the choice to be a part of such events, we need to stop them.

    That's the difference between torture, and extracting vital information.

    All of you, EACH of you "But we cannot torture" people always leave out the fact the people being subjected to such... are terrorist, that desire to kill your fellow man. Why do you care more for the comfort of such people over the lives of innocent people?

    I'll never ever understand that.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Why is murder an option?
    Ethereal's point was, seemingly, the end's justify the means.

    As such, I want to see how far that logic goes with him. Torture of inmates that are assumed to have information is okay if it prevents a single terrorist attack for him. Does that apply to deporting an entire religious group? Imprisoning them? Executing them? Where is the line when the ends no longer justify the means to him. That's why its there.

    In regards to TD, I don't know exactly. My post was not advocating one way or another. My questions were not advocating one way or another. ANY one of those questions could be used to decide that Full Out traditional torture was okay or not, that this current crop of intensive interrogation/mild torture is okay or not, that intense interrogation is okay or not, and that even imprisonment and questioning is okay or not. NONE of my questions were indicating that the answer was "yes" or "no" either way. It was only stating that, once you accept that Torture CAN produce legitimate results but doesn't ALWAYS produce it and that it DOES create some POTENTIAL negatives, those questions are generally what one must ask themselves to come to a conclusion if its okay.

    To people like Ethereal, his posts makes me think even going so far as to go to traditional torture of breaking bones, bamboo shoots, and other things are perfectly okay if it prevents a terrorist attack. Others seems to think that the answers lead them to believe that the damage it does to our moral standing and out integrity as a nation is not worth the small chance in their mind of getting legitimate information that is actionable.

    Some people seem to have a similar view as the famous movie character Col. Jessup, that the military should be left alone from the general populous because they have to do dirty and disgusting and dishonorable things in the name of security and trying to hold them to some kind of morality standard is dangerous to this country. Others believe that if our military doesn't embody the things we are supposedly fighting for and instead embodies some of the things we're fighting against then we have no moral standing to say our way is right and as such we must defend ourselves from you and spread our views to your people.

    In regards to alternatives to things like waterboarding and others, numerous military and intelligence officials have came out and stated after the fact that there are legitimate non-psychological torture ways of still extracting information from people. But frankly, I'm not educated on the subject enough EITHER WAY to truly make a call on that one and I'd imagine, frankly, that FEW people on this site have HONESTLY researched BOTH SIDES enough to answer that in anything but a biased one sided way. However I've heard enough in passing from various sources for me to believe that our intelligence community if given the challenge could find legitimate ways to still extract information without going to some of the lengths we currently go to. That's not to say I have a distinct problem with the vast majority of what we do, but simply speaking to the possibility for alternatives.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Ethereal, would you support the systematic:

    1. Deportation
    2. Imprisonment
    3. Murder

    Of any muslim in the U.S. if it prevented just one terrorist attack?
    No, I would not sacrifice the entirety of our nation's moral integrity to prevent a terrorist attack. I would, however, sacrifice a measure of our moral integrity to prevent a terrorist attack. Discretion must be inherent to any interrogation or intelligence operation. We cannot simply mutilate a person because there's a ten percent chance they might know of an impending terrorist attack, but I would have no qualms about putting Osama Bin Laden's testicles in a vice if he were aware of such an attack.

    The lines have always been blurred; the idea that they are well-defined is a contemporary illusion.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    All of you, EACH of you "But we cannot torture" people always leave out the fact the people being subjected to such... are terrorist, that desire to kill your fellow man. Why do you care more for the comfort of such people over the lives of innocent people?

    I'll never ever understand that.
    I'm not even one of those "we cannot torture" people...

    But can you guarantee that 100% of the time that these things happen they always occur to someone that is legitimately a terrorist....let alone someone that has actually violated ANY law or someone that actually has any information?

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Until the CIA comes out and says, - we got no actionable intelligence from our interrogation until right after we waterboarded him - the claim is speacious at best. What that article says to me is that they used a LOT of different techniques.
    No one's interested in swaying the minds of rabid partisans.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Define torture.

    To me, using whatever means necessary to save lives and stopping is not torture.
    Like ending them? Ending lives to save lives seems futile. All life is important, not just the lives of Americans.

    Beating some one for days for no reason... that's torture.

    Being cruel, hurtful... causing pain for no legitimate purpose... that's torture.

    Needing to save 1, 10, 1,000 or more lives and having to cause someone discomfort, or yes, even pain. Well, they made the choice to be a part of such events, we need to stop them.

    That's the difference between torture, and extracting vital information.
    So what happens when no vital information is extracted? Then you have beaten someone for days and nothing was gained. But that's okay, because it's only Americans that count, right?

    All of you, EACH of you "But we cannot torture" people always leave out the fact the people being subjected to such... are terrorist, that desire to kill your fellow man. Why do you care more for the comfort of such people over the lives of innocent people?

    I'll never ever understand that.
    I care for the comfort of all people, not just those who were born in my country by chance.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    No, I would not sacrifice the entirety of our nation's moral integrity to prevent a terrorist attack. I would, however, sacrifice a measure of our moral integrity to prevent a terrorist attack. Discretion must be inherent to any interrogation or intelligence operation. We cannot simply mutilate a person because there's a ten percent chance they might know of an impending terrorist attack, but I would have no qualms about putting Osama Bin Laden's testicles in a vice if he were aware of such an attack.

    The lines have always been blurred; the idea that they are well-defined is a contemporary illusion.
    So torture is bad, but its okay to do it, if we have a legitimate good chance to get information from the person? How good of a chance should it be? Should there be any kind of accountable party that determines if its such? Should there be reprucussions if its found that the chance was far less than the people doing it claimed in some sort of substantial way? Should there be varying levels of torture allowed for varying chances? IE if its a 50% chance he has information its okay to waterboard but if its 90% chance he has information its okay to mutilate.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Am I the only one that sees the irony in many of those that scream fascism, tyranny, and socialism with every bailout, environmental protection, or social safety-net, are also some of the biggest defenders of government sanctioned torture, denial of habeas corpus, and warrantless wiretaps?

    You don't trust the government to bail out a bank, but you trust them with torture? You don't trust the government to administer say, unemployment extensions, but you trust them with selectively denying habeas corpus?

    You guys that defend this crap are the very enablers of tyranny and you don't even know it.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    2. Does the damage to our integrety as a nation and world standing outweight the potential gains of using such techniques in light of #1.
    You know, the more I've thought about this issue the more I become convinced that had a President Obama been president during a major terrorist attack and had it been a Democratic administration interrogating these captured al qaeda suspects... the world community would never blink an eye about any of this.

    No doubt in my mind. This whole 'torture' issue has been and always was a Bush bashing hate-fest. Nothing more.


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