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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
you have no idea of my service, just as we have no idea of yours, except what you claim
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so you admit once again you lied about me when you attacked my service.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Vader said:
Endangering lives through RECKLESS REMARKS?

Are you high?
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If I was high, perhaps I would have forgotten "Rev's" quotes including these, in THIS thread alone:

But some humans need to be killed.
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lets just hope that when it happens, they kill your friends and family members this time
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I call that not only reckless but irresponsible, what do you call it?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
so you admit once again you lied about me when you attacked my service.
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do you admit you lied about my service?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
If I was high, perhaps I would have forgotten "Rev's" quotes including these, in THIS thread alone:





I call that not only reckless but irresponsible, what do you call it?
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care to put those comments in context or are you going to continue to spew your non stop lies?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
care to put those comments in context or are you going to continue to spew your non stop lies?
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what is the acceptable context for wishing death upon the family of a forum member...I can't wait to hear this.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
what is the acceptable context for wishing death upon the family of a forum member...I can't wait to hear this.
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quote me and link or stop lying.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ok seriously guys... Rev is the camo one and will is the long haired one.
Is the sissy fight over yet?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCGO2EKbqcs"]YouTube - Konrad and Kc-Omega Sissy Fight[/ame]
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
what is the acceptable context for wishing death upon the family of a forum member...I can't wait to hear this.
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When the poster in question says they'd rather see another event like the one that killed your family and friends occur than the waterboarding of people connected to the event that killed your friends and family.

The way I read the post was not wishing death upon the poster's family so much as hoping that if said poster's wish comes true, said poster would feel the same pain that the Rev and many others felt on 9/11.

Is it inappropriate? Probably.

Is it understandable that one who lost family on 9/11 would feel that way after reading the post in question? Of course.

On the point that some humans need to be killed, he was talking about terrorists. I agree on that. Some people do need to be killed. People who would kill innocent civilians while pursuing their demented causes deserve to be killed themselves.





As far as waterboarding being torture, after reading the SERE account of it that the Rev posted I no longer have any doubts that it is in fact torture. The training they are going through is designed to prepare them for being interogated by enemies that do not adhere to geneva conventions. The questions that violate the conventions that come before the interrogations supports the idea that what follows is what they would face from an enemy that would willfully violate those conventions.

So in essence, it seems to me that the training is designed to teach our military personnel how to respond in the face of torture. But of course, the navy does not wish to severely harm it's people, so they use a low-grade form of torture that doesn't cause the damage that other forms would.

The fact that it is a lower-grade variant does not negate it's status as torture, IMO.

To me, the debate on whether or not it is torture is pure semantics. The more pressing debate is whether or not torture is acceptable under certain extreme circumstances. And if some levels of torture are indeed acceptable, what level of torture is where you draw the line?

What would be the protocols for allowing torture? Could we draw a clear line on when it is acceptable, and to what degree, based on the circumstances?

I'm of two minds on the issue. Part of me wants to say that no degree of torture is ever acceptable, but there is another part of me that knows that if my loved one's life were directly on the line, I wouldn't hesitate to waterboard someone in order to potentially save my loved one's life. Hell, I would probably cut their legs off if that's what it took to save my loved one's life, let alone a lower grade form of torture.

In other words, I'm undecided.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

thanks for the effort tuck. i didn't bother because of the poster involved. you are a better man than i, sir.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

The Bush haters are in a complete panic, and have been for some time.

If they don't get Bush on something what does that mean?

It means for eight years they committed treason against the US.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

sazerac said:
The Bush haters are in a complete panic, and have been for some time.

If they don't get Bush on something what does that mean?

It means for eight years they committed treason against the US.
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:roll: :toilet:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
thanks for the effort tuck. i didn't bother because of the poster involved. you are a better man than i, sir.
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No. I'm not better. I couldn't have gone through SERE training. My hat's off to you on that one. ;)
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
I doubt that anyone who experienced SERE school or was a member of an elite military corps would exhibit the casual disregard for torture, and the disrespect of the military which I see coming from you. I suspect the military background which you brandish so often is a figment of your imagination.
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That's part of it. We were discussing the current fervor about torture because of the CIA memos which is when he told me about the SERE instructor he met almost a year ago. They apparently got aquainted over there and had many talks about the military, the war, the Bush admin, SERE school... He basically confirmed what you suggest, that no one who goes through SERE training takes torture lightly nor do they advocate it. He confirms that they tell you in SERE how to try and make your captors stop, by lying correctly. They put you through a mild version of various techniques so that you understand what will happen to be mentally prepared. In describing the Revs positions on many of these type of things we both conclude that he's either mentally unsound or a liar. That's just our opinion of course.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:
That's part of it. We were discussing the current fervor about torture because of the CIA memos which is when he told me about the SERE instructor he met almost a year ago. They apparently got aquainted over there and had many talks about the military, the war, the Bush admin, SERE school... He basically confirmed what you suggest, that no one who goes through SERE training takes torture lightly nor do they advocate it. He confirms that they tell you in SERE how to try and make your captors stop, by lying correctly. They put you through a mild version of various techniques so that you understand what will happen to be mentally prepared. In describing the Revs positions on many of these type of things we both conclude that he's either mentally unsound or a liar. That's just our opinion of course.
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show some class. I already told you. you want to question my service. pm me and we can compare dd214's, otherwise you need to shut your mouth with your classless lies about me.



again, now its a year ago? it is you who sounds like he is lying. make up your mind. where was this make believe SERE instructor stationed?


Slippery Slope said:
I just spoke to my son who was recently accpeted to Marine Scout/Sniper school. He met a guy in Iraq, guess what he did for the last 6 years... SERE instructor. My son confirms my suspicion, you're a liar who never went to SERE school. :2wave:
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so was it a year ago, or did you just speak to your son. when did he meet this SERE instructor? either you or your son is lying.

which is it?
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:
if my loved one's life were directly on the line, I wouldn't hesitate to waterboard someone in order to potentially save my loved one's life. Hell, I would probably cut their legs off if that's what it took to save my loved one's life, let alone a lower grade form of torture.

In other words, I'm undecided.
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I know this is the classic argument in favor of torture, used countless times in episodes of "24", but I question if this situation has ever existed in reality. And if it did exist in reality, and the subject was a trained terrorist, and the clock was ticking, would he not gladly suffer to complete his mission? That said, I see no circumstances in which torture would work.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:
That's part of it. We were discussing the current fervor about torture because of the CIA memos which is when he told me about the SERE instructor he met almost a year ago. They apparently got aquainted over there and had many talks about the military, the war, the Bush admin, SERE school... He basically confirmed what you suggest, that no one who goes through SERE training takes torture lightly nor do they advocate it. He confirms that they tell you in SERE how to try and make your captors stop, by lying correctly. They put you through a mild version of various techniques so that you understand what will happen to be mentally prepared. In describing the Revs positions on many of these type of things we both conclude that he's either mentally unsound or a liar. That's just our opinion of course.
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That was my thinking. Either someone lying about serving, or someone damaged by his service.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
That was my thinking. Either someone lying about serving, or someone damaged by his service.
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How cowardly to discuss my service on the internet. Like I said before. pm me and i'll tell you how you can see my dd214.....


You gotta love it when some non serving hack spends his time lying about a veteran's service.


It shows no class, no integrity, and shows a complete lack of respect for me or for those who served.


You get what you give will. remember that when you go crying..... :2wave:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
I know this is the classic argument in favor of torture, used countless times in episodes of "24", but I question if this situation has ever existed in reality. And if it did exist in reality, and the subject was a trained terrorist, and the clock was ticking, would he not gladly suffer to complete his mission? That said, I see no circumstances in which torture would work.
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I have no idea if it ever existed in reality. I've never been faced with it myself, but there's a lot of **** I've never been faced with.

All I know is that if the hypothetical were real, and I were facing it, I'd use torture. I cannot in good faith denounce others for using what I myself would use if they are faced with such a situation in reality.

And neither one of us can offer anything but conjecture regarding the actual existence or nonexistence of such scenarios nor can we offer anything substantial regarding how the terrorists would respond to being tortured in such a scenario.

Like I said, I'm undecided on it. I'd need actual evidence one way or the other to support or denounce the practice.

If you could somehow make an actual argument based on more than your questioning of the scenario's likelihood, perhaps I could be swayed. But if all you can put forth is the fact that you question it, or cannot see the situation where it would work, I will obviously remain undecided. What you can or cannot see as plausible has no bearing whatsoever on my decision-making. The fact that it works for you is all well and good, but it isn't exactly a persuasive argument.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Yet another "torture works" claim that has serious problems.

CIA official: no proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks

"The CIA inspector general in 2004 found that there was no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped the Bush administration thwart any "specific imminent attacks," according to recently declassified Justice Department memos. The IG's report is among several indications that the Bush administration's use of abusive interrogation methods was less productive than some former administration officials have claimed. President Bush told a September 2006 news conference that one plot, to attack a Los Angeles office tower, was "derailed" in early 2002 — before the harsh CIA interrogation measures were approved, contrary to those who claim that waterboarding revealed it. Last December, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Vanity Fair magazine that he didn't believe that intelligence gleaned from abusive interrogation techniques had disrupted any attacks on America."

And on the topic of SERE:

"The Bush administration erred by depending on a military training program, Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape, (SERE) to assess the risks that a suspected terrorist might face when being waterboarded. Individuals undergoing SERE training are obviously in a very different situation from detainees undergoing interrogation; SERE trainees know it is part of a training program," Bradbury wrote, borrowing from the IG report's conclusion.

Waterboarding terrorist suspects also differed substantially from its limited use in the SERE program. Quoting from the IG report, Bradbury wrote, "The waterboard technique . . . was different from the technique described in the DOJ opinion and used in the SERE training . . . At the SERE school . . . the subject's airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency interrogator . . . applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose." Bradbury said the inspector general reported: "OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologist/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant."

So even if you've been through SERE school, you haven't really been waterboarded.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
Having you come on and bash the source instead of the info now thats... expected. Are you related to HDL?

IT was the first source I found backing what cheney was saying... if it turns out bogus, by all means bring out the "truth", otherwise, all you have is... your usual shtick.
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Cheney was saying it--haven't we already determined anything coming out of his corrupt pie hole is bogus as hell?

In all seriousness... Cheney was saying it, man.

Cheney?! Dick.

As much as I agree we need to move forward and not get tied down in some partisan war over all this... I still would like to see Cheney in an orange jumper doing the perp walk. Or at least 3 rounds with Binden--no holds barred.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:
I have no idea if it ever existed in reality. I've never been faced with it myself, but there's a lot of **** I've never been faced with.

All I know is that if the hypothetical were real, and I were facing it, I'd use torture. I cannot in good faith denounce others for using what I myself would use if they are faced with such a situation in reality.

And neither one of us can offer anything but conjecture regarding the actual existence or nonexistence of such scenarios nor can we offer anything substantial regarding how the terrorists would respond to being tortured in such a scenario.

Like I said, I'm undecided on it. I'd need actual evidence one way or the other to support or denounce the practice.

If you could somehow make an actual argument based on more than your questioning of the scenario's likelihood, perhaps I could be swayed. But if all you can put forth is the fact that you question it, or cannot see the situation where it would work, I will obviously remain undecided. What you can or cannot see as plausible has no bearing whatsoever on my decision-making. The fact that it works for you is all well and good, but it isn't exactly a persuasive argument.
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I think the statements by the conductors of torture techniques that torture does not yield useful information should be persuasive.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
I think the statements by the conductors of torture techniques that torture does not yield useful information should be persuasive.
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Funny, I never considered you, WillRockwell, the "centrist", a thinker.

You're handpicking your quotes. Funny, I seem to recall other "centrists" jumping all over Bush for handpicking intelligence. So what do you have to say about those "conductors of torture techniques" who claim that it does and has yielded useful information? Could they be right and the ones you cling to be wrong? Nah, anything that contradicts your emotions has to be a lie, right? :roll:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

P/N said:
Funny, I never considered you, WillRockwell, the "centrist", a thinker.

You're handpicking your quotes. Funny, I seem to recall other "centrists" jumping all over Bush for handpicking intelligence. So what do you have to say about those "conductors of torture techniques" who claim that it does and has yielded useful information? Could they be right and the ones you cling to be wrong? Nah, anything that contradicts your emotions has to be a lie, right? :roll:
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How about if you link to an interrogator who stands behind the claim that torture yields useful data? I haven't seen that.
 
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