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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

  1. #121
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually, this proves it CAN work. It doesn't prove it "does" work, as does suggests it works across the board all the time.

    I think MOST reasonable people can accept that intense interrogation, mild torture, or even extreme torture can all yield legitimate results. As I've stated repeatedly, we would not put our own men in the military through things such as waterboarding and other things in preparation for being able to withstand it if captured if there wasn't a chance that they could give out legitimate information.

    However, the question comes as follows:

    1. Does it yield enough legitimate information on a consistant enough basis that it is worth it.

    2. Does the damage to our integrety as a nation and world standing outweight the potential gains of using such techniques in light of #1.

    3. Are there more effective ways to retrieve said information that is less questionable and has less effect in regards to #2.

    4. Does the potential for over reliance on a tactic whose information may yeild a high amount of false positives outweight the benefit of the legitimate information we can recieve.

    5. Does the use of such techniques raise the likihood that our soldiers in future wars against groups that previously did not routinely use such techniques or worse will be subject to such techniques due to the expectation that the U.S. will be doing it to theirs?

    These are some of the questions I think one must begin to ask themselves once they accept the fact that it IS possible to get legitimate worth while information from not just these kind of techniques but even full out universally held acts of "torture" but also accept the fact that such a process is far from a perfect form of gaining information that does have at least POTENTIAL pitfalls.
    4.
    The groups that capture our troops routinely cut off heads. I can't imagine it getting much worse.
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote:Originally Posted by MrVicchio
    You don't live in the real world do you?

    You'd rather have people killed, DEAD...

    And you cannot name a single RIGHT lost during the Bush years... you actually made me sick
    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    "WHO" doesn't live in the real world? Got a barf bag?
    The above once again illustrates that once more you cannot name one.

    Carry on; denial leads to ignorance, don't do denial.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I said US State soil, you may want to try reading. It's English, it's not tough; you should have learned it already. Your argument is for my safety. Well I'm not in other parts of the world. I live in the United States. My safety is here, thus attacks on US embassies in war zones and hostile countries does nothing towards my safety. Do you even remember your argument against me? You're keeping me safe. US State soil has had 5 terrorist attacks since the 20's. Hardly an epidemic or something I need to worry about.

    So how are you keeping me safe now?
    This type of thinking ignores a couple of key unavoidable facts. First off we're becoming more and more global. Our economies are interlinked quite heavily and our dependence for resources is all quite interlinked. As we become more global the Earth essentially shrinks in so far as ignoring those folks over there goes.

    Second, we are the world's superpower.

    I understand that many many folks think we should stop involving ourselves in issues around the world, militarily.

    However my response to that would be if we ignore things and wait till it is impossible to ignore them any longer before taking action then we're probably setting our men and women in the military up to fight harder more difficult battles later for the comfort of sticking our heads in the sand in the here and now. Allowing things to fester because they are not our immediate direct problem essentially allows them to grow so that when we are called on -and ultimately we will be- we face just that much bigger of a problem.
    Last edited by talloulou; 04-22-09 at 01:51 PM.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There are circumstances where necessary evil must be taken. But I think we should do our best to limit the amount we engage in evil overall. If avoidable, we should avoid it.
    Once again you have to wallow in willful historic ignorance to claim one can "avoid" evil. The answer to evil is to CONFRONT it.

    Carry on.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Once again you have to wallow in willful historic ignorance to claim one can "avoid" evil. The answer to evil is to CONFRONT it.

    Carry on.
    Translation:
    "blah blah blah, I have nothing to add here, I just wanted to insult you and have taken such an opportunity to do so. My comment contained no grain of intellectual honesty, no purpose towards debate, and very little to no intellect involved. Carry on, I'll go find some other post by you which I can insult and still not add anything to the debate...till then."
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Because we are better.
    Yes, I can now imagine a meeting of despots, tyrants, dictators and terrorists; they are going to declare the USA off limits as a target because we took some warped perceived moral "high" ground and declared that we are better than they are.

    Folks, at what point did our collective brains begin to atrophy into rabid denial?

    Here's a very simple example; when you were in school and confronted with a bully, what did it take to stop it? Was it hiding from the bully? Was it to not fight back meeting force with force because it would take sacrifice and some around you would no longer respect your peaceful attentions? OR, perhaps it was confronting the bully and finding out he was a coward and when confronted, backed down or then left you alone?

    This doesn't take rocket science; just some simple common sense. Can anyone name a single historic event where accommodation, moral arguments or appeasement worked on a despot? The answer is simple; NO.


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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Because we're not animals. We know and can do better, and thus we should. There's a lot of value in the higher moral ground. I'd rather not jump off.
    Suggesting that the previous administration acted like animals is beyond mere willful ignorance, it is patently offensive.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Yes, I can now imagine a meeting of despots, tyrants, dictators and terrorists; they are going to declare the USA off limits as a target because we took some warped perceived moral "high" ground and declared that we are better than they are.

    Folks, at what point did our collective brains begin to atrophy into rabid denial?


    Here's a very simple example; when you were in school and confronted with a bully, what did it take to stop it? Was it hiding from the bully? Was it to not fight back meeting force with force because it would take sacrifice and some around you would no longer respect your peaceful attentions? OR, perhaps it was confronting the bully and finding out he was a coward and when confronted, backed down or then left you alone?

    This doesn't take rocket science; just some simple common sense. Can anyone name a single historic event where accommodation, moral arguments or appeasement worked on a despot? The answer is simple; NO.

    In your case.............

  9. #129
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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    This type of thinking ignores a couple of key unavoidable facts. First off we're becoming more and more global. Our economies are interlinked quite heavily and our dependence for resources is all quite interlinked. As we become more global the Earth essentially shrinks in so far as ignoring those folks over there goes.

    Second, we are the world's superpower.

    I understand that many many folks think we should stop involving ourselves in issues around the world, militarily.

    However my response to that would be if we ignore things and wait till it is impossible to ignore them any longer before taking action then we're probably setting our men and women in the military up to fight harder more difficult battles later for the comfort of sticking our heads in the sand in the here and now. Allowing things to fester because they are not our immediate direct problem essentially allows them to grow so that when we are called on -and ultimately we will be- we face just that much bigger of a problem.
    It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from. You make good points. But in terms specifically of terrorism I think that we may find ourselves in a vicious cycle and that cycle is hard to break. Israel and Palestine are entrenched in such a cycle of hate and violence. I just think that America can exercise a lot more logic and intellect to strive for solution. I don't think we can go totally isolationist, but I do think we need to consider our actions.

    I don't think we should concern ourselves with occupational wars, if people attack our sovereignty we can go in and break them. There is nothing most countries can do against the might of the US military. I think we have to be very careful in what we do and how we do it because actions have consequences. Torture, allowing it large scale is a bad idea and I think some people argue that point. War on terror...occupational wars in hostile countries isn't going to help us so much. We live in a global world, and we have many interconnections with other countries. But that's also a very good thing. We have many allies, and many others who just wouldn't do anything because harming us harms them. Trade and diplomacy have traditionally gone further than war. That's not to say that these things are completely avoidable, but we should do our best to avoid it if possible. That's my take on the issue anyway.

    There is a proper solution, and I think we can get to it if we just employ a bit of logic and intellect.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Suggesting that the previous administration acted like animals is beyond mere willful ignorance, it is patently offensive.
    Hahah, aww man. Thanks for proving me right. Awesome.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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