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Thread: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Torture is the domain of despots, terrorists, gangsters, loansharks, not civilized people.
    Prove it. So far all you have are opinions.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Torture is the domain of despots, terrorists, gangsters, loansharks, not civilized people.
    If waterboarding is torture due to the mental anguish and possible post traumatic stress syndrome then capturing and imprisoning folks would also be torture wouldn't it? If not, why?

    For me - torture would be causing actual bodily harm and damage in an attempt to manipulate and intimidate somebody.

    If for others torture is anything that causes duress, anguish, and leaves lasting bad memories and possibly post traumatic stress then not only does sleep deprivation, waterboarding, and cold cell count but you would also have to view any type of imprisonment as torture. If you don't feel that way please explain why so I can understand.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    1. I never claimed to be Christian.
    You don't have to be Christian to learn from Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    2. Your position does not take into account the sanctity of all life, merely that of the terrorist.
    In fact, it accounts for the whole. American and otherwise. It does also recognize terrorists as human, which is not the standard. As such, a different set of moral arguments comes into the picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    3. You have not established that your view is "reality" as opposed to the terrorist's. What if yours is not the reality?
    The reality of the situation is this. The world will never run out of terrorists. If you want to wage a "war on terror" or whatever other BS, you're going for perpetual war. That includes a lot more dead people, our side and theirs. We'll only have more "we need to torture" arguments because we won't leave the state of war. The reality of the situation is that you either forgive and start dealing with this on individual basis with individual attacks, or we turn into Israel and Palestine. That's the fact. You need to understand that the cycle of violence we're starting doesn't break easily, and to break one side has to be the adult. We are more than capable of taking that role. I suggest we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    4. You are wrong about hatred and about forgiveness. Forgiveness is generally the easier task.
    I am not wrong. True forgiveness is one of the hardest things out there. To accept the actions taken against you, and purge the hate from your heart. You're confusing forgiveness with non-action. Those two are not the same. It take a lot more resolve, a lot more power, a higher moral ground to forgive your enemy.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Prove it. So far all you have are opinions.
    "If you stare into the Abyss long enough the Abyss stares back at you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

    You become the same thing you are supposedly fighting IMHO.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You don't have to be Christian to learn from Jesus.
    I don't think Jesus has a place in this conversation. But let's assume he does. The story goes he was destined to be nailed to a cross and die hanging in the sun. Now that is torture! And that was planned by God. The ultimate sacrifice to forgive us for our sins. Something that had to happen according to God. Something that was heinous yet somehow justified, predestined, and designed as the only act to wipe the slate clean for humanity.


    I am not wrong. True forgiveness is one of the hardest things out there. To accept the actions taken against you, and purge the hate from your heart. You're confusing forgiveness with non-action. Those two are not the same. It take a lot more resolve, a lot more power, a higher moral ground to forgive your enemy.
    God could have just forgave humanity without a need for his only begotten son to be tortured but he didn't. So not sure I get the Jesus example.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You don't have to be Christian to learn from Jesus.
    No, but outside of Christianity his moral authority is not a given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    In fact, it accounts for the whole. American and otherwise. It does also recognize terrorists as human, which is not the standard. As such, a different set of moral arguments comes into the picture.
    Wonderful rhetoric, but doesn't say anything. Torture arguments don't necessarily deny the humanity of terrorists. Some do, but it by no means a prerequisite.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The reality of the situation is this. The world will never run out of terrorists. If you want to wage a "war on terror" or whatever other BS, you're going for perpetual war. That includes a lot more dead people, our side and theirs. We'll only have more "we need to torture" arguments because we won't leave the state of war. The reality of the situation is that you either forgive and start dealing with this on individual basis with individual attacks, or we turn into Israel and Palestine. That's the fact. You need to understand that the cycle of violence we're starting doesn't break easily, and to break one side has to be the adult. We are more than capable of taking that role. I suggest we do.
    If we are never going to run out of terrorists, then we already have "perpetual war." Your argument thus devolves to "we just need to accept terrorism."

    And that's the fact.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I am not wrong. True forgiveness is one of the hardest things out there. To accept the actions taken against you, and purge the hate from your heart. You're confusing forgiveness with non-action. Those two are not the same. It take a lot more resolve, a lot more power, a higher moral ground to forgive your enemy.
    Again, more high-flying rhetoric without a shred of foundation to support it.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    No, what protects you from wrongful imprisonment and torture right now is that torture is illegal for everyone, and you have the right to challenge your accusers in the courts. You have legal rights, and the government is not above the law.

    However, by telling the government that they torture anyone they label as a terrorist suspect, you are placing the government outside of the law and all they have to do is label someone a terrorist suspect, and those protections no longer apply.
    Still having trouble distinguishing between US citizens in our country and picking up terrorist insurgents, called enemies of the state, on foreign soil I see.

    How does one have a coherent argument with people who so willfully ignore FACTS and REALITY and then fabricate their own imaginary facts?

    Not ONE US Citizen has been picked up, called a terrorist and had enhanced interrogation methods applied to them; you think it is a responsible debate tactic to fabricate imaginary injustices?

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    "If you stare into the Abyss long enough the Abyss stares back at you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

    You become the same thing you are supposedly fighting IMHO.
    Except that we don't cause malicious pain on others for no reason other then "we have you, you're the enemy".

    You guys quoting this stuff always ignore that part...
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I bring this up all the time, I was waterboarded in SERE school, and I am mentally ok.
    Some here may question this statement.

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    Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Except that we don't cause malicious pain on others for no reason other then "we have you, you're the enemy".
    ..
    yeah we are perfect

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