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Thread: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

  1. #21
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    Re: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

    The Communist Party, the one whose symbol you'd gladly wear.
    The hammer and sickle is the symbol of the international communist movement, and not simply the "symbol of the CCCP". Its origins lie in the 1917 Revolution, and through Russia's influence on the international communist movement at the time the symbol spread internationally very quickly.

    I have even seen anarchists incorporate the hammer and sickle into some of their symbology.

    EDIT: Here's the coat of arms of Austria:



    Notice how it incorporates the hammer and sickle. This was created in 1919 and has been in use as the official coat of arms of the country ever since. Here's the 1919 version:



    Do you think that the Austrian government supports the CCCP?

    Saying you support it up until 1924 is like saying you support the Nazis until Ernst Roehm was killed, before the death camps. You know, the "good Nazis," the ones who fixed the economy and rebuilt the country.
    No it is not, as I am stating that I politically support the Russian communists up until around Lenin's death. NAZI ideology never went through any kind of politico-ideological split as the Communist Party did following Lenin's death (unless you have some groundbreaking new evidence, at least).

    Mein Kampf was published in 1925.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 04-21-09 at 02:17 AM.

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    Re: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    The hammer and sickle is the symbol of the international communist movement, and not simply the "symbol of the CCCP". Its origins lie in the 1917 Revolution, and through Russia's influence on the international communist movement at the time the symbol spread internationally very quickly.
    You keep dishonestly trying to limit what I say to the "CCCP." I didn't say "the CCCP." I didn't say "the Soviet Union." I didn't say "Russia." I said "the Communist Party." I have been quite clear about that.


    No it is not, as I am stating that I politically support the Russian communists up until around Lenin's death. NAZI ideology never went through any kind of politico-ideological split as the Communist Party did following Lenin's death (unless you have some groundbreaking new evidence, at least).
    Well, that was kind of the point of the Night of the Long Knives. To prevent it from happening, actually.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  3. #23
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    Re: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

    You keep dishonestly trying to limit what I say to the "CCCP." I didn't say "the CCCP." I didn't say "the Soviet Union." I didn't say "Russia." I said "the Communist Party." I have been quite clear about that.
    I'm sorry, but since we were talking about Russia, and since you said "the Communist Party" I assumed you were referring to the Communist Party of Russia/The Soviet Union. If you are not referring to this Party then to which are you referring?

    EDIT: Sorry, I was getting my acronyms mixed up. When I was saying CCCP I meant RCP(B)/AUCP(B)/CPSU.

    Well, that was kind of the point of the Night of the Long Knives. To prevent it from happening, actually.
    Yes, I know. That is why I said what I did. Why are you supporting my argument? Are you agreeing with me now?
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 04-21-09 at 02:34 AM.

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    Re: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I'm sorry, but since we were talking about Russia, and since you said "the Communist Party" I assumed you were referring to the Communist Party of Russia/The Soviet Union.
    Yes. You assumed. Apparently didn't matter that I mentioned Mao and Pol Pot.


    If you are not referring to this Party then to which are you referring?
    The Communist Party. You know, Big-C Communists, brutal thugs who took over the governments of a number of countries and systematically killed "inconvenient" people by the dozens of millions.

    Why is that so difficult to understand? I mean, other than simply wanting to ignore it.

    Yes, I know. That is why I said what I did. Why are you supporting my argument? Are you agreeing with me now?
    How am I supporting your argument? You appear to be signing on to mine.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

    Yes. You assumed. Apparently didn't matter that I mentioned Mao and Pol Pot.
    Can you provide evidence of where I have supported Mao or Pol Pot?

    As for the Khmer Rouge, they were an anti-intellectual/anti-industrial primitivist group bent on destroying industry for some kind of mystical return to a humble peasant past that never existed. They weren't communist in any way except for the rhetoric that they occasionally used and their use of terms. But that is a debate for another thread, if you would like to open one up.

    The Communist Party. You know, Big-C Communists, brutal thugs who took over the governments of a number of countries and systematically killed "inconvenient" people by the dozens of millions.
    You'll have to be more specific than that, as you were above with providing names, and then you will have to show that I support them.

    How am I supporting your argument?
    My argument was that your claim was utterly ridiculous because there was no politico-ideological shift in the NAZI party as there was in the Bolshevik party following Lenin's death. Night of Long Knives supports my claim because it crushed all dissent and ultimately prevented any chance of such a split occurring. Stalin used the same tactic a few years later to crush all opposition and consolidate his power, thus completing the shift in Russia.

    Whereas in Germany the tactic was used as a defensive measure to prevent such a shift from occurring, in Russia it was used by Stalin as an offensive measure to ultimately crush his remaining political opponents and finally consolidate power in his hands. In Germany it was used to prevent such a shift; in Russia it was used to consolidate such a shift. That is why you bringing up the Night of Long Knives supports my assertion.

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    Re: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

    The point is, whatever the hammer and sickle may have symbolized at one time (though totalitarianism is a necessary outcome of any state communism), what was done under its banner was the largest mass murder in all of history.

    You may wish it weren't so. You may wish the hammer and sickle were not associated with such things, or that the banner of communism weren't.

    But it was. And much like the Hindus who might like to have the swastika back free and clear, it just ain't gonna happen.

    But even that's not a good analogy, because the swastika didn't symbolize anything Nazi until the Nazis co-opted it and made it famous. But the Communists were following what WAS symbolized by the hammer and sickle and carried it out to its inevitable end.

    Because after all, even in the best of situations, communism only works if everyone's on board. But in a large population, that's impossible, so you have to deal with dissenters. From there, it's a very short leap to repression and totalitarianism.

    And that's why they all did it. It should not be surprising that mass murder followed.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

    The point is, whatever the hammer and sickle may have symbolized at one time (though totalitarianism is a necessary outcome of any state communism), what was done under its banner was the largest mass murder in all of history.

    You may wish it weren't so. You may wish the hammer and sickle were not associated with such things, or that the banner of communism weren't.

    But it was. And much like the Hindus who might like to have the swastika back free and clear, it just ain't gonna happen.

    But even that's not a good analogy, because the swastika didn't symbolize anything Nazi until the Nazis co-opted it and made it famous. But the Communists were following what WAS symbolized by the hammer and sickle and carried it out to its inevitable end.

    Because after all, even in the best of situations, communism only works if everyone's on board. But in a large population, that's impossible, so you have to deal with dissenters. From there, it's a very short leap to repression and totalitarianism.

    And that's why they all did it. It should not be surprising that mass murder followed.
    I'll take this rant as your concession, as I have systematically dismantled every single assertion you have presented and this is all you can respond with.

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    Re: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I'll take this rant as your concession, as I have systematically dismantled every single assertion you have presented and this is all you can respond with.
    It is not a rant, and you have not -- considering the overarching theme of my posts is that the Communist Party is by at least an order of magnitude the biggest mass-murderer in history.

    All you've said in repsonse to that is "I'm not a Stalinist" and "how many people has capitalism killed?"
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

    It is not a rant
    Of course it is; that is about all you have offered up over the past three pages aside from your weak attempt at painting Trotsky as some kind of authoritarian. I've offered plenty of evidence to support every single claim that I have made.

    considering the overarching theme of my posts is that the Communist Party
    There is no such thing as "the Communist Party". You cannot lump every single "Communist Party" into one category. Not only is that completely contrary to a fundamental understanding of history, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. "The Communist Party" is a term that only has meaning to you.

    is by at least an order of magnitude the biggest mass-murderer in history.
    So who is "the Communist Party" then?

    All you've said in repsonse to that is "I'm not a Stalinist" and "how many people has capitalism killed?"
    No, I've said quite more than that in this thread. Perhaps you didn't respond to my posts because you didn't read them, then, but I have a hunch that you did read them and either didn't understand them for whatever reason or are just being dishonest.

    I've responded to every single point you made with evidence showing that your claims are ridiculous, and every single time you have retreated, neglecting to respond to any of my posts. You then claim that I didn't address your assertion that "the Communist Party is the biggest mass-murderer in history" when I have already shown that "the Communist Party" as a generalization only exists in your mind and makes no sense to anyone with a shred of common sense.

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    Re: Research on Lesser-Known Nazi Sites Is Now Public

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Of course it is; that is about all you have offered up over the past three pages aside from your weak attempt at painting Trotsky as some kind of authoritarian. I've offered plenty of evidence to support every single claim that I have made.
    No, Trotsky was a distraction that YOU brought up. You keep trying to limit what I say to things you can easily shoot down (such that it is), but that's not what I was saying.


    There is no such thing as "the Communist Party". You cannot lump every single "Communist Party" into one category. Not only is that completely contrary to a fundamental understanding of history, but it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. "The Communist Party" is a term that only has meaning to you.
    Funny; people have no problems linking the Nazi Parties of . . . well, anywhere. The fiction is that these Communist groups can't be linked. That's idiotic, moronic, and mostly apologist fodder.


    So who is "the Communist Party" then?
    Those parties who call themselves such and subscribe to its ideology, methodology, and symbolism.



    No, I've said quite more than that in this thread. Perhaps you didn't respond to my posts because you didn't read them, then, but I have a hunch that you did read them and either didn't understand them for whatever reason or are just being dishonest.

    I've responded to every single point you made with evidence showing that your claims are ridiculous, and every single time you have retreated, neglecting to respond to any of my posts. You then claim that I didn't address your assertion that "the Communist Party is the biggest mass-murderer in history" when I have already shown that "the Communist Party" as a generalization only exists in your mind and makes no sense to anyone with a shred of common sense.
    No, I gave it all the same weight and consideration I would give to anyone explaining why the Nazis were actually misunderstood, unjustly-maligned, decent chaps, at least in the early days, and that they only adhere to the "good" aspects of Nazism. After all, at first, the Nazis only did what needed to be done to perfect their revolution, and they did it for the good of Germany. Or so a similar argument would go.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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