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Thread: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

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    Re: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Certainly can't argue with that. I just hate the way "responsibility" has been turned into just another political buzzword that means, essentially, the opposite of what it means in English.

    When someone works hard and invests money for retirement, they are being responsible and should be rewarded for it. When someone rips off a pension fund to line their own pockets or gets paid hundreds of millions of dollars to run a company into the ground, they should be held responsible for it. That is what "responsibility" means, and that is the kind of responsibility that I want to see our governments and our corporations and every other social institution in this country uphold.
    The people who have contributed to Social Security have had plenty of opportunity to unseat all of the people who have spent the money.

    That money has already been spent on those who contributed through tax credits and other government programs.

    At this point Social Security is a welfare fund.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    And in case you didn't notice, our little economic crash here wiped out nearly half of the planet's wealth.
    I've heard that and similar statements made frequently lately. It's a very interesting argument when you think about it... and rather odd. Because the fact of the matter is that little of material value has disappeared during this economic 'crisis.' No property has gone missing. No homes, planes, trains, or automobiles have disappeared. No gold or treasure has vanished from our vaults. The grain is still in the silos and the oil is still in the tankers. Some of these things may have changed hands. But on balance, it's all still here. So by any real standard, the idea that 'nearly half the planet's wealth' has been suddenly wiped out is quite puzzling... because the obvious conclusion that all that so-called 'wealth' never truly existed in the first place.


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    Re: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Grateful Heart View Post
    I've heard that and similar statements made frequently lately. It's a very interesting argument when you think about it... and rather odd. Because the fact of the matter is that little of material value has disappeared during this economic 'crisis.' No property has gone missing. No homes, planes, trains, or automobiles have disappeared. No gold or treasure has vanished from our vaults. The grain is still in the silos and the oil is still in the tankers. Some of these things may have changed hands. But on balance, it's all still here. So by any real standard, the idea that 'nearly half the planet's wealth' has been suddenly wiped out is quite puzzling... because the obvious conclusion that all that so-called 'wealth' never truly existed in the first place.

    Exactly, this was a bubble that is by definition is an unsupportable inflation in perceived value.

    It was wiped out and the fools got caught in it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Yeah, great argument.

    Except that Social Security isn't "other people paying for your retirement", because you paid into it for forty years. Pension plans are not "other people paying for your retirement," because you've worked for decades for the same employer and that is part of your compensation package.

    And in case you didn't notice, our little economic crash here wiped out nearly half of the planet's wealth. It doesn't matter how well you've diversified your holdings, if you had a pot to piss in and a window to throw it out of last year, you took a hit.

    You know, part of this "personal responsibility" ethic that people keep throwing around as if it's a silver bullet-- a miraculous counter-argument against any and all government action-- is that if a person behaves responsibly and does what they are supposed to do, they will be rewarded.

    When the majority of wealth in this country is held by a class of parasites who are compensated completely out of proportion to their contributions to either their employer or society, calling for "personal responsibility" and blaming hard-working American families for the hardships they suffer isn't just disingenuous, it is despicable.
    Everyone with a brain knows that SS is a joke and if you were counting on that to retire on you are a idiot. And while I agree that in lots of cases people will suffer over the crash of the economy it is not the job of the Govs to make sure that everyone can retire comfortable. Do I feel sorry for those people yes do I want lots of tax dollars going to them so people can retire no. The govs job is to make sure everyone can pursue happiness not guarantee that you get there.

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    Re: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

    Government isn't designed to make hard choices. They are designed to do what is deemed popular by ignorant masses or the arrogant few depending on the circumstances. Government does what is easy for the short-term, what garners votes.

    There is no such thing as venturing into something labeled 'political suicide' even if it is the right thing. Screw all the morons that say 'country first'. There is no such thing as country first because if that was the case instead of this facade of country first, we wouldn't be in this mess.
    "If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action."

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    Re: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    What do you think would have happened had not this money been allocated? I bet a lot of 401ks that retirees rely on for income would be hurting real bad.
    Unfortunately, the stimulus didn't go towards helping those people, at least not directly. I am a pension analyst and one of my duties is to keep very close tabs on any changes that are made to the IRS code. There has as yet been nothing implemented that will prop up the losses to 401k's. There were some changes made that will eventually benefit select groups of people (such as relaxing the standards for retirees for such things as Required Minimum Distributions), but as is typical with any government changes, no clear direction has been provided to administrators and so virtually none of these have been put into practice yet.

    I agree that some retirees got royally screwed, that and the many folks who have lost their jobs are the ones I feel terribly sorry for..and if it were me, I'd be pissed (heck, I'm pissed anyway).

    My wife's friend had a primary profession in real estate and a secondary profession in retail management. When the real estate bubble burst, changes at the office where she worked forced her to seek new employment (they removed all base pay, only paying out commissions). She applied to her backup profession without bites for weeks, only to finally talk to someone and find out that she was likely not even be considered because she did not have a master's degree in business management. Apparently they get so many applications, they only bother to review those with advanced degrees - even for a 35-60k/year position. *boggle* She's now running parts for an auto dealership, which is roughly akin to the job I had in high school.

    I reviewed an account the other day where the participant had lost over half of his 1.2 million life savings. That's not typical, it's usually closer to 1/3 or less, but it's brutal no matter what.

    What needed to happen was to get tough on the perpetrator's of this nightmare (read: axe, then replace them ALL), severely cut government spending (not increase it more than any administration ever has), and roll up our sleeves and all bust our butts until we're clear of this mess. Instead, we're saddled with crushing debt for years to come.

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    Re: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Yeah, great argument.

    Except that Social Security isn't "other people paying for your retirement", because you paid into it for forty years.
    Actually, that's exactly what it is.

    It's the world's biggest Ponzi scheme, and the latecomers to the game are going to get screwed, as happens in all pyramid scams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    And in case you didn't notice, our little economic crash here wiped out nearly half of the planet's wealth. It doesn't matter how well you've diversified your holdings, if you had a pot to piss in and a window to throw it out of last year, you took a hit.
    What I noticed was that it wasn't the taxpayer's duty to protect those investors.

    For some reason my children, less than ten years old, are now saddled with the bill the collectivists in Washington working for the bankers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    You know, part of this "personal responsibility" ethic that people keep throwing around as if it's a silver bullet-- a miraculous counter-argument against any and all government action-- is that if a person behaves responsibly and does what they are supposed to do, they will be rewarded.
    Don't know nothing about that. Where'd the weird idea come from that a person can be as ignorant, as irresponsible, and as whiny as he likes, and the taxpayer will just have to bail his sorry butt out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    When the majority of wealth in this country is held by a class of parasites who are compensated completely out of proportion to their contributions to either their employer or society, calling for "personal responsibility" and blaming hard-working American families for the hardships they suffer isn't just disingenuous, it is despicable.
    Well, if you're not willing to line the socialists and collectivists up in front a brick wall and hose them will bullets, what's your plan for restoring Constitutional governance to America?

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    Re: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

    Hey now...
    Cutting maybe 100 million dollars out of the 3 trillion you spent before you spend another 3 trillion is the the greatest savings plan ever!

    If you don't agree then you're a racist.

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    Re: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    It's the world's biggest Ponzi scheme, and the latecomers to the game are going to get screwed, as happens in all pyramid scams.
    It wasn't intended to be. It was established as a separate trust, which our Congress has subsequently-- and irresponsibly-- looted for decades. If the Social Security fund had been held, well, secure as was promised, it would still be solvent.

    Of course, that does nothing to address that the ratio of people paying into Social Security to people drawing benefits is plummeting and that the program cannot survive this. Government did not anticipate either the increase in life expectancy or the fall of the birth rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    What I noticed was that it wasn't the taxpayer's duty to protect those investors.

    For some reason my children, less than ten years old, are now saddled with the bill the collectivists in Washington working for the bankers.
    That's what happens when government spends more than it collects. Something that our citizens should think about when they spend so much time whining about our taxes-- especially when the majority of the people whining actually pay the smallest fraction of the tax burden.

    Something I've noticed. Most of the people calling for "flat tax" and "fair tax" and clamoring for more tax breaks are people who aren't even close to the top tax bracket. Most days, it seems like I'm the only poor working stiff I know who realizes just how little I pay in tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Don't know nothing about that. Where'd the weird idea come from that a person can be as ignorant, as irresponsible, and as whiny as he likes, and the taxpayer will just have to bail his sorry butt out?
    Personally, I'd like to know where the Hell you get off calling people who saved and invested responsibly for their retirement, or their childrens' college funds-- and whose wealth was destroyed by people who, even without government assistance, would still be wealthier than any of us have ever been-- "ignorant, irresponsible, and whiny."

    As far as I am concerned, people like you who are supporting the right of the corporations and their top shareholders and executives-- the ultra-rich whose only contribution to society is being ultra-rich-- to do whatever they want and to gain profits at the expense of the rest of society are part of the problem. You are like dogs who lick the master's hand while he's beating you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Well, if you're not willing to line the socialists and collectivists up in front a brick wall and hose them will bullets, what's your plan for restoring Constitutional governance to America?
    If our government were limited to functioning within your narrow and largely unfounded interpretation of the Constitution, our nation would be ruined-- enslaved to the globalists and the multinational corporations as surely as if we had allowed the liberals to sell us out to the WTO and the UN.

    If we want to have any hope of saving our nation, we have to encourage our government to behave responsibly-- which means spending money wisely, supporting programs that enrich and protect the American people, and most importantly, collecting enough in taxes to pay for it.

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    Re: Obama: Like families, govt to make hard choices

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Personally, I'd like to know where the Hell you get off calling people who saved and invested responsibly for their retirement, or their childrens' college funds-- and whose wealth was destroyed by people who, even without government assistance, would still be wealthier than any of us have ever been-- "ignorant, irresponsible, and whiny."

    As far as I am concerned, people like you who are supporting the right of the corporations and their top shareholders and executives-- the ultra-rich whose only contribution to society is being ultra-rich-- to do whatever they want and to gain profits at the expense of the rest of society are part of the problem. You are like dogs who lick the master's hand while he's beating you.


    This is perhaps the most spot-on observation I've yet read on these boards. Well said, sir.

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