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Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

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Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico.

Thursday said:
President Obama, after meeting Thursday with Mexico's president, signaled he is backing away from his pledge to renew the U.S. ban on assault weapons but still wishes to stop the cross-border flow of guns that wind up in the arsenals of drug cartels.

The military-style assault weapon ban expired in 2004, and Obama faced an uphill political battle in winning a renewal of the law, which is unpopular in key political states and among Republicans and some conservative Democrats.

Obama said Thursday he preferred to focus on enforcing existing laws to keep assault weapons out of Mexico, rather than trying to renew the U.S. ban on the weapons.

I'm glad to see him walk away from this. This is good news for us. Obama has exhibited common sense and good judgement.
 
Good. This may just be a political ploy, but the Dems would probably be wise to stop trying to push through their agenda too quickly unless they wish for another 1994.
 
I am glad to hear this. I've been working with the GOA and NRA to oppose this in every way possible. The AWB was an unnecessary and ineffective law to start with, as well as unConstitutional.

No question that it is a politically motivated position... I think the Democrat party is learning: gun control is political poison. They started realizing that when they lost the House in 94, in part over the AWB.

NOW, what I'm wondering is this:

Calderon claims American "assault" weapons getting into Mexico are a problem.

SecState Clinton says America's "unsatiable appetite for drugs" is fueling the drug cartels that are all but in civil war against Mexico's excuse-for-a-government.

WHY is no one renewing calls for a real border fence and border security?

But Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff has said a wall running the length of a border would cost too much. A 2,000 mile state-of-the-art border fence has been estimated to cost between four and eight billion dollars. Costs for a wall that would run the entire length of the border might be as low as $851 million for a standard 10-foot prison chain link fence topped by razor wire. For another $362 million, the fence could be electrified. A larger 12-foot tall, two-foot-thick concrete wall painted on both sides would run about $2 billion. Initially it was estimated that the San Diego fence would cost $14 million -- about $1 million a mile. The first 11 miles of the fence eventually cost $42 million -- $3.8 million per mile, and the last 3.5 miles may cost even more since they cover more difficult terrain. An additional $35 million to complete the final 3.5 miles was approved in 2005 by the Department of Homeland Security -- $10 million per mile.

US-Mexico Border Fence / Great Wall of Mexico

Eight billion dollars isn't too much for real border security. Our current budget is what, three trillion? 8 Billion would be only 0.2% of our budget. We sent ten billion to Africa in aid recently. I'd think border security would be worth at least that much, since it would theoretically aid both the USA (illegal immigration and cross-border drug smuggling), and Mexico (lost profits for the drug gangs = lost power, and the alleged gun smuggling problem). As a taxpayer I'd gladly shell out eight billion every year for border security...after all it is reasonably considered one of the enumerated powers (defense).

G.
 
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I'm glad to see him walk away from this. This is good news for us. Obama has exhibited common sense and good judgement.
I'd say it has more to do with him not wanting to have a repeat of 1994.
Gaining and retaining political power trumps all.
 
I'd say it has more to do with him not wanting to have a repeat of 1994.
Gaining and retaining political power trumps all.

Of course, like I said....good for us, he exhibited common sense and good judgment.
 
I am glad to hear this. I've been working with the GOA and NRA to oppose this in every way possible. The AWB was an unnecessary and ineffective law to start with, as well as unConstitutional.

No question that it is a politically motivated position... I think the Democrat party is learning: gun control is political poison. They started realizing that when they lost the House in 94, in part over the AWB.

NOW, what I'm wondering is this:

Calderon claims American "assault" weapons getting into Mexico are a problem.

SecState Clinton says America's "unsatiable appetite for drugs" is fueling the drug cartels that are all but in civil war against Mexico's excuse-for-a-government.

WHY is no one renewing calls for a real border fence and border security?



US-Mexico Border Fence / Great Wall of Mexico

Eight billion dollars isn't too much for real border security. Our current budget is what, three trillion? 8 Billion would be only 0.2% of our budget. We sent ten billion to Africa in aid recently. I'd think border security would be worth at least that much, since it would theoretically aid both the USA (illegal immigration and cross-border drug smuggling), and Mexico (lost profits for the drug gangs = lost power, and the alleged gun smuggling problem). As a taxpayer I'd gladly shell out eight billion every year for border security...after all it is reasonably considered one of the enumerated powers (defense).

G.

But is it shovel-ready?
 
Something tells me there are at least a dozen shovel ready proposals for a southern border security fence.

;)

Well then **** YEA LETS GIT ER DONE! :lol:

I'm calling it right now - come time for the next major debate over funding for a border fence, there will be a knock-down drag-out fight over whether there will be stringent ID requirements imposed on the laborers involved in building it.

That just seems like the perfect storm of **** for the Dems and Reps to fight over.
 
Obama is a joke. He grandstands an issue he can't win.

The real meat & potato's of the article is right here:

"In order for Mexico to grow and prosper, Mexico needs the United States' investments, and the United States of America needs the strength of the Mexican labor force," Calderon said.

Translation:

We give Mexico more money to piss away, and we get more illegal immigrants to work for tax free slave wages, leech off our entitlement programs, and live without fear of being deported.

We can police the world, but we can't police our own backyard.
 
Obama is a joke. He grandstands an issue he can't win.

The real meat & potato's of the article is right here:

"In order for Mexico to grow and prosper, Mexico needs the United States' investments, and the United States of America needs the strength of the Mexican labor force," Calderon said.

Translation:

We give Mexico more money to piss away, and we get more illegal immigrants to work for tax free slave wages, leech off our entitlement programs, and live without fear of being deported.

We can police the world, but we can't police our own backyard.

Unless I'm mistaken, Calderon is referring to actual investment by private industry in Mexican corporations and manufacturing. In that sense, what he's saying is completely accurate and entirely uncontroversial.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, Calderon is referring to actual investment by private industry in Mexican corporations and manufacturing. In that sense, what he's saying is completely accurate and entirely uncontroversial.

Again, like all the other Obama initiatives, big on words, void of details.

They keep talking about tracing all these weapons back to the United States, yet they give no specifics. If they've been traced back here, how come DOJ/ATF/FBI aren't conducting raids to shut down the arms dealers?

Again, suspiciously void of details. Where is the proof, all those weapons are originating from here?

The facts are clear, drugs & illegal immigrants are coming in.

The solution is to shut down the border with troops & fence. Force everyone through the checkpoints.
 
The solution is to shut down the border with troops & fence. Force everyone through the checkpoints.

No no no!
The solution is to make it harder for law-abiding Americans to get guns!!

< looking at you and not understanding why you dont get it >
 
Again, like all the other Obama initiatives, big on words, void of details.

They keep talking about tracing all these weapons back to the United States, yet they give no specifics. If they've been traced back here, how come DOJ/ATF/FBI aren't conducting raids to shut down the arms dealers?

Again, suspiciously void of details. Where is the proof, all those weapons are originating from here?

The facts are clear, drugs & illegal immigrants are coming in.

The solution is to shut down the border with troops & fence. Force everyone through the checkpoints.

What does any of this have to do with what we were just talking about? Did you just randomly select some anti-immigration rhetoric and post it without regard for the topic?
 
What does any of this have to do with what we were just talking about? Did you just randomly select some anti-immigration rhetoric and post it without regard for the topic?

No, I actually read the article linked in the OP:

President Obama, after meeting Thursday with Mexico's president, signaled he is backing away from his pledge to renew the U.S. ban on assault weapons but still wishes to stop the cross-border flow of guns that wind up in the arsenals of drug cartels.

I then pointed out the real rhetoric, which is the Obama administration claiming that these guns can be traced back to the United States.

Yet, we've seen no proof of it.

"We are absolutely committed to working in partnership with Mexico to make sure we are dealing with this scourge on both sides of the border," Obama said at a news conference with Calderon outlining their strategy.

You know, the drug dealers and immigrants who are crossing into our country illegally.

You can cling to his campaign speech style of rhetoric if you choose. I like to investigate his claims a little more closely. What I've found, as I've previously stated, is that he's long on words, short on substance.
 
No no no!
The solution is to make it harder for law-abiding Americans to get guns!!

< looking at you and not understanding why you dont get it >

I'm seeing a trend here with He-Man-Obama-Haters-Club. In the face of evidence that contradicts you, just make **** up. A bit risky, but that's your style. Devil may care, freeballin in your Wranglers and Ann Coulter t-shirts.
 
Again, like all the other Obama initiatives, big on words, void of details.

They keep talking about tracing all these weapons back to the United States, yet they give no specifics. If they've been traced back here, how come DOJ/ATF/FBI aren't conducting raids to shut down the arms dealers?
Tracing guns back to a country of origin does not necessarily equate to tracing them back to an arms dealer. You are making a negative proof argument here and it's weak sauce. Just because you don't hear about ATF agents raiding arms dealers doesn't mean the guns didn't come from this country. It just means you aren't hearing about raids on specific arms dealers. Maybe you should stop being critical of Obama on this matter and start being critical of the ATF if you think they are lying.

Again, suspiciously void of details. Where is the proof, all those weapons are originating from here?
This is awesome. Where is the proof they aren't? To use your logic..."well since we don't have anyone providing proof they aren't from here they must be from here!"

The facts are clear, drugs & illegal immigrants are coming in.
Finally, some real facts.

The solution is to shut down the border with troops & fence. Force everyone through the checkpoints.
I can agree with this.
 
Tracing guns back to a country of origin does not necessarily equate to tracing them back to an arms dealer.

Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.

Oops, your statement is shot all to hell. Perhaps you can find these shops Obama is referring too. Clinton and Obama have both stated that stopping the flow of guns from the US into Mexico is key to our border security. Yet were not seeing or hearing about any efforts to crack down on these "gun shops that line our shared border".

Maybe you should stop being critical of Obama on this matter and start being critical of the ATF if you think they are lying.

I'll never stop being critical of our elected officials, it's my duty as a citizen to question their actions every step of the way.

I have been critical of DOJ/ATF/FBI, and as I've pointed out in many threads here, the claims are always suspiciously void of details.

When Obama blatantly & knowingly lies, then I will be even more critical of him.

Again:

Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.

He openly lied, on the world stage, after these numbers were proven to be false. Clinton tried foisting them on the public three weeks earlier:

The president isn't the first to make this mistaken claim; far from it. During an interview on CBS' "Early Show" on March 26, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said: "We have to recognize and accept that the demand for drugs from the United States drives them north, and the guns that are used by the drug cartels against the police and the military, 90 percent of them come from America."

Where is the proof they aren't?

The onus isn't on me to prove it. The onus is on the people making these bold claims.

FactCheck.org: Counting Mexico's Guns
 
Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business.
This is a well established truth.

This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.
This was an inaccurate statement on his part. Even Mexican officials don't put the "90%" comment out accurately. The ATF has stated that 90% of guns recovered from criminal incidents in Mexico, with serial numbers, submitted to the ATF for tracing, are shown to come the U.S.

Oops, your statement is shot all to hell. Perhaps you can find these shops Obama is referring too. Clinton and Obama have both stated that stopping the flow of guns from the US into Mexico is key to our border security. Yet were not seeing or hearing about any efforts to crack down on these "gun shops that line our shared border".
No, my statement is not "shot all to hell." You are being selectively reliant upon the absence of detail, which is curious as you rail on Obama over the same issue. Firearms are "traced" by their serial number primarily. That number is linked to the manufacturer, country of origin, reseller, usually the first person who purchases the weapon, and occasionally eventual purchasers. The statements that the ATF, Obama, Clinton, etc. in no way indicate that the gun shop owner is the one who sold the weapon to the drug cartel. All it actually indicates is that at some point in the life of this firearm, federal records show it passed through a specific gun reseller in the U.S. It does not say that a drug cartel gun buyer came in and bought the weapons and shipped them to Mexico.

Have you ever been to a gun show the size of say the one in Tulsa? I have been there a few times and bought a couple of rifles and a pistol, completely untraceable purchases because there was no log created, not even a receipt for purchase. One I bought in the parking lot from a guy who had just bought it inside. Now if that gun were to be used by me in a crime, and the ATF investigated, they would find a trail that stopped long before it got to me. That in no way means that the folks who are identified and linked to this weapon had anything to do with selling a criminal a gun, and therefore no raid would be necessary.

You don't have nearly enough information to make the anemic leap you have made in this case. Your interest is not to actually debate this topic in an honest manner, your interest is talking **** on Obama.

I'll never stop being critical of our elected officials, it's my duty as a citizen to question their actions every step of the way.
You're exercising very poor logic and selective criticism in this case.
I have been critical of DOJ/ATF/FBI, and as I've pointed out in many threads here, the claims are always suspiciously void of details.
You haven't been critical of the DOJ/ATF/FBI here. And this is the only conversation I've had with you on this specific issue. Your reliance on an assumption that people have read all of your works is in no way a safety net for your ill formulated argument in this thread. You are taking Obama's obvious mischaracterization of a frequently mischaracterized statistical figure and extrapolating beyond a reasonable conclusion in order to make a case for criticizing the man at this particular oppotunity.

The ATF has in fact generated reports based upon the actual gun information they have received from Mexican officials during criminal investigations. Just because GottaHurt can't find them on the internet or Obama doesn't cite the case files specifically doesn't mean they don't exist.

So your litany of assumptions here are really no foundation for the argument you are making. They are however very indicative of your true motivations.


When Obama blatantly & knowingly lies, then I will be even more critical of him.
Plop.

Again:

Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.

He openly lied, on the world stage, after these numbers were proven to be false. Clinton tried foisting them on the public three weeks earlier:

The president isn't the first to make this mistaken claim; far from it. During an interview on CBS' "Early Show" on March 26, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said: "We have to recognize and accept that the demand for drugs from the United States drives them north, and the guns that are used by the drug cartels against the police and the military, 90 percent of them come from America."
I'll agree that the 90% figure is being abused by the administration, but the intent behind the abuse is not yet solidified in my mind. I'll not dismiss that this could be a very deliberate line of deception in order to grab guns from Americans, however I seriously doubt that it goes that far. Let's face it, the pro-gun folks were all over this. Obama has publicly made that statement once, Clinton has publicly made that that statement once. They were addressing the U.S./Mexican relationship and the criminal elements they share, which are tied overwhelmingly in two areas: drugs and guns. Did they take advantage of the situation to drop the 90% line? Sure. Did they get it wrong and drop it out of its actual context? Sure. Was it a deliberate campaign of deception aimed at seizing guns? In my opinion, I don't think so. I think it was a dumb move aimed at over emphasizing the extent of the issue. YMMV.

The onus isn't on me to prove it. The onus is on the people making these bold claims.
Wrong, the onus is on you to back up your specific insinuation, that a lack of federal raids on these gun shops means treachery is afoot. In fact you relied on a lack of information in the MSM as the foundation to launch your insinuation. Not a smart move.

And the point here is that the Mexican government seizes thousands of guns, that of the guns actually reported to the ATF by the Mexican government 90% are traced back to the U.S., that a large number of guns seized are not reported to the ATF, and the actual percentage of crime guns seized in Mexico that come from the U.S. is an elusive number.

Even the Mexican ambassador to the U.S. dropped the figure out of its actual context.
 
This was an inaccurate statement on his part.

No, it's a blatant lie. The information was out there as early as March 17th.
Because Obama and his speech writers chose to ignore the facts doesn't change the fact, that he lied.

No, my statement is not "shot all to hell." You are being selectively reliant upon the absence of detail, which is curious as you rail on Obama over the same issue. Firearms are "traced" by their serial number primarily. That number is linked to the manufacturer, country of origin, reseller, usually the first person who purchases the weapon, and occasionally eventual purchasers. The statements that the ATF, Obama, Clinton, etc. in no way indicate that the gun shop owner is the one who sold the weapon to the drug cartel. All it actually indicates is that at some point in the life of this firearm, federal records show it passed through a specific gun reseller in the U.S.

Hook line & sinker. Suspiciously void of detail is the phrase I've used time and time again as the Obama administration misleads the public, by leaving out the details.

It does not say that a drug cartel gun buyer came in and bought the weapons and shipped them to Mexico.

I've never claimed this.

Have you ever been to a gun show the size of say the one in Tulsa? I have been there a few times and bought a couple of rifles and a pistol, completely untraceable purchases because there was no log created, not even a receipt for purchase. One I bought in the parking lot from a guy who had just bought it inside. Now if that gun were to be used by me in a crime, and the ATF investigated, they would find a trail that stopped long before it got to me. That in no way means that the folks who are identified and linked to this weapon had anything to do with selling a criminal a gun, and therefore no raid would be necessary.

One time, at band camp.... :doh

You don't have nearly enough information to make the anemic leap you have made in this case. Your interest is not to actually debate this topic in an honest manner, your interest is talking **** on Obama.

No anemic leaps here, only laughter as you use the phrase "honest debate."

You're exercising very poor logic and selective criticism in this case.

My criticism of Obama is well founded in this case. He's been caught in a blatant lie, then grandstanded his position on AWB. He can't win the AWB fight, his own party won't support it, so he spun it.

You haven't been critical of the DOJ/ATF/FBI here. And this is the only conversation I've had with you on this specific issue. Your reliance on an assumption that people have read all of your works is in no way a safety net for your ill formulated argument in this thread.

I've assumed nothing, and have been critical of DOJ/ATF/FBI. Your lackadaisical approach to searching out the facts is your problem, not mine.

You are taking Obama's obvious mischaracterization of a frequently mischaracterized statistical figure and extrapolating beyond a reasonable conclusion in order to make a case for criticizing the man at this particular oppotunity.

Translation:

Obama blatantly lied in the same fashion Hillary lied about coming under sniper fire.

Your hilarious spin definitely puts you in the running for the Junior Community Organizer Lapel Pin you so desperately seek from Obama.

The ATF has in fact generated reports based upon the actual gun information they have received from Mexican officials during criminal investigations. Just because GottaHurt can't find them on the internet or Obama doesn't cite the case files specifically doesn't mean they don't exist.So your litany of assumptions here are really no foundation for the argument you are making. They are however very indicative of your true motivations.

I've already supported my arguments with your link, and my link.

Just like Obama & Crew, you fail to produce any sources to this particular point in the debate.

I'll agree that the 90% figure is being abused by the administration, but the intent behind the abuse is not yet solidified in my mind.

Nice, you go from:

Obama's obvious mischaracterization of a frequently mischaracterized statistical figure

to now admitting it's abuse. :doh

I'll not dismiss that this could be a very deliberate line of deception in order to grab guns from Americans, however I seriously doubt that it goes that far.

You keep on doubting. His track record on gun rights is out there for all to see.

In 2006, he voted with an 84 to 16 majority (and against Clinton) to prohibit confiscation of firearms during an emergency, but that is his only pro-gun vote in Springfield or Washington. The National Rifle Association grades his voting record (and Clinton's) an "F."

Robert D. Novak - Obama's Second-Amendment Dance - washingtonpost.com

'Nobody Knows Obama's Record on Guns Better Than I Do,' Says Illinois State Rifle... | Reuters

Barack Obama on Gun Control

Obama has publicly made that statement once, Clinton has publicly made that that statement once. They were addressing the U.S./Mexican relationship and the criminal elements they share, which are tied overwhelmingly in two areas: drugs and guns.

Irrelevant are the number of times they made the comment. The comment itself is a lie.

Did they take advantage of the situation to drop the 90% line? Sure. Did they get it wrong and drop it out of its actual context? Sure.

Nice. A mischaracterization turned into abuse and has now made it's way to taking advantage of the situation.

Wrong, the onus is on you to back up your specific insinuation, that a lack of federal raids on these gun shops means treachery is afoot.

No, the onus is not on me. Me calling into question a lack of raids does not mean I'm insinuating that treacery is afoot. It's a legitimate question.

In fact you relied on a lack of information in the MSM as the foundation to launch your insinuation.Not a smart move.

I laugh in your face at your assertion here. The only move lacking smarts is the above quote from you.

And the point here is that the Mexican government seizes thousands of guns, that of the guns actually reported to the ATF by the Mexican government 90% are traced back to the U.S., that a large number of guns seized are not reported to the ATF, and the actual percentage of crime guns seized in Mexico that come from the U.S. is an elusive number.

Even the Mexican ambassador to the U.S. dropped the figure out of its actual context.

The point here, is you don't have one. You've tried repeatedly to spin the fact that Obama blatantly lied about the numbers.

You then morph it from a mischaracterization, to an abuse, to deliberately taking advantage of a situation.

You then "band camp" with anecdotal drivel, make ridiculous assertions and copy/paste the facts in regard to the 90% from my link.

When I say you're the Barney Frank of DP, it means just that, long winded, filled with spin, and containing nothing of substance.
 
Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico.



I'm glad to see him walk away from this. This is good news for us. Obama has exhibited common sense and good judgement.

Instead of Obama renewing a unconstitutional ban I see Obama trying to find another back door to use for stripping away 2nd amendment rights such as back ground checks,closing "gun show loop hole", gun limits, waiting periods, permits, registrations and any other unconstitutional thing. The majority of states do not require people to do these things,if you don't believe then look up the brady website. The most logical solution as GottaHurt suggested is to prevent US arms from making into Mexico is to adequately secure the border and require everyone to go through check points on the border. Instead of using the most logical solution Obama and all the other clowns in office who pretend to give a **** about what happens in Mexico will use this as an opportunity to chip away our second amendment rights through incrementation. I could care less about Mexico's crime problem. Crime in another country is not excuse to effect our rights in the US.
 
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What does any of this have to do with what we were just talking about? Did you just randomly select some anti-immigration rhetoric and post it without regard for the topic?

Don't you mean anti-illegal immigration/anti-illegals rhetoric? Its like lumping Eurotrash and Europeans together,there is a difference.
 
Don't you mean anti-illegal immigration/anti-illegals rhetoric? Its like lumping Eurotrash and Europeans together,there is a difference.

You're right, my apologies.
 
No, it's a blatant lie. The information was out there as early as March 17th.
Because Obama and his speech writers chose to ignore the facts doesn't change the fact, that he lied.
I'll not argue this point, you believe it to be a deliberate lie, I'm not ready to make that leap.

Hook line & sinker. Suspiciously void of detail is the phrase I've used time and time again as the Obama administration misleads the public, by leaving out the details.
Bull****. Your asserting that since you've not heard of raids being conducted on U.S. gun dealers that Obama is lying. You're being dishonest again.

I've never claimed this.
No, but you did say that if in fact guns could be traced back to U.S. gun dealers there would have been ATF raids on the dealers. In fact, a good portion of your argument is based around this logic. So I ask, if they weren't selling to the cartels or some agent of the cartels, why would you forward the notion that we should be raiding the gun dealers? I'll tell you why, you are dishonest and you further...you really don't understand what you are talking about.

One time, at band camp.... :doh
Yeah, I'd avoid actually trying to rebut that if I were you too. But you really have no way to debunk what I've said because it is a scenario that has played out thousands of times at gun shows all over the country. And it is just one example of why your house of cards is so easy to blow down.

No anemic leaps here, only laughter as you use the phrase "honest debate."
Yet your reputation here is so well established by members on all sides of the political spectrum. Yeah, the problem here is me alright. You've not substantiated your case with anything other than your staccato posting of opinion and bad logic interspersed with an occasional reference to some actual truth.


My criticism of Obama is well founded in this case. He's been caught in a blatant lie, then grandstanded his position on AWB. He can't win the AWB fight, his own party won't support it, so he spun it.
He backed away from it. That is what is most important here.


I've assumed nothing, and have been critical of DOJ/ATF/FBI. Your lackadaisical approach to searching out the facts is your problem, not mine.
You have assumed a very large amount of information and been called on it. And you haven't actually been critical of the ATF or any other agency in this thread. You've not proven anything other than Obama mischaracterized the 90% statistic in his speech. I can and have run circles around you in numerous debates regarding the bringing of facts. Thus far, as I have pointed out, the main foundation of your post that started this was based completely on your ignorant assumptions and lack of knowledge regarding how guns are traced in criminal investigations.


Translation:

Obama blatantly lied in the same fashion Hillary lied about coming under sniper fire.

Your hilarious spin definitely puts you in the running for the Junior Community Organizer Lapel Pin you so desperately seek from Obama.
Translation: "I still really can't make my case so I'll make a runty little anti-Obama remark." Keep dancing.


I've already supported my arguments with your link, and my link.
No, you have not. Not in any way, and I've shown why. What you are doing now is simply denying the obvious. You're logic is flawed and you wiggling like a fish on the floor of the boat. A spot you frequently find yourself in whether it be at my hand or any other number of posters who get on here and expose your inadequacies.

Stay tuned...the real hammer is about to drop.
 
Just like Obama & Crew, you fail to produce any sources to this particular point in the debate.
Stop being obtuse. You're actually stating that because you personally were presented with all the case files that the ATF is lying. That Obama is lying. Wait, I forget that when learning to make a fried corn on the cob they don't teach you how to actually do research for yourself, only make assumptions that are tempered by your own political predispositions and and layered with flawed logic. Here let me help you out and in the process shut your bloviating.

Hoover and Placido's statement to the Senate Committee on the Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime and Drugs.
Defining the Problem
The southwest border is the principal arrival zone for most illicit drugs trafficked into the U.S., as well as the predominant staging area for the subsequent distribution of these drugs throughout the U.S. Guns are an integral part of these criminal enterprises; they are the “tools of the trade.” Drug traffickers routinely use firearms against each other and have used these weapons against the Mexican military, law enforcement officials, and Mexican civilians. Because firearms are not readily available in Mexico, drug traffickers have aggressively turned to the U.S. as their primary source. Firearms are routinely being transported from the U.S. into Mexico in violation of both U.S. and Mexican law. In fact, according to ATF’s National Tracing Center, 90 percent of the weapons that could be traced were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S. One thing must remain clear in any discussion of violence in Mexico, or violence practiced by Mexican traffickers operating in the U.S.: drug gangs are inherently violent, and nowhere is this more true than in Mexico, where “Wild West”-
9
style shootouts between the criminals and the cops, and elements of opposing trafficking groups are unfortunately considered normal.
To elaborate, the rising incidences of trafficking U.S.-sourced firearms into Mexico is influenced by a number of factors, including increased demand for firearms by drug trafficking organizations, and the strictly regulated and generally prohibited possession and manufacturing of firearms in Mexico. Remarkable amounts of cash are accumulated on the U.S. side of the border and it is believed that, in certain cases, it is used to procure firearms and ammunition that eventually makes their way south to Mexico. Weapons sources typically include secondary markets, such as gun shows and flea markets since—depending on State law—the private sale of firearms at those venues often does not require background checks prior to the sale or record keeping.
A comprehensive analysis of firearms trace data over the past three years indicates that Texas, Arizona and California are the three largest source States, respectively, for firearms illegally trafficked to Mexico. In FY 2007 alone, Mexico submitted approximately 1,112 guns for tracing that originated in Texas, Arizona and California. The remaining 47 States accounted for 435 traces in FY 2007.
Some of the operations that were referenced and substantiate the claims within the statement.
Project Gunrunner.
ATF is deploying its resources strategically on the Southwest Border to deny firearms, the “tools of the trade,” to criminal organizations in Mexico and along the border, and to combat firearms-related violence affecting communities on both sides of the border. In partnership with other U.S. agencies and with the Government of Mexico, ATF refined its Southwest Border strategy. ATF developed Project Gunrunner to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico and thereby deprive the narcotics cartels of weapons. The initiative seeks to focus ATF’s investigative, intelligence and training resources to suppress the firearms trafficking to Mexico and stem the firearms-related violence on both sides of the border.

Firearms tracing, in particular the expansion of the eTrace firearms tracing system, is a critical component of Project Gunrunner in Mexico. ATF recently deployed eTrace technology in U.S. consulates in Monterrey, Hermosillo and Guadalajara, with six additional deployments to the remaining U.S. consulates in Mexico scheduled by March 2008. ATF has conducted discussions with the government of Mexico regarding the decentralization of the firearms tracing process to deploy Spanish-language eTrace to other Mexico agencies.

In the past two years, ATF has seized thousands of firearms headed to Mexico. Trends indicate the firearms illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border are becoming more powerful. ATF has analyzed firearms seizures in Mexico from FY 2005-07 and identified the following weapons most commonly used by drug traffickers:
· 9mm pistols;
· .38 Super pistols;
· 5.7mm pistols;
· .45-caliber pistols;
· AR-15 type rifles; and
· AK-47 type rifles.

- more -

Most of the firearms violence in Mexico is perpetrated by drug trafficking organizations (DTOs) who are vying for control of drug trafficking routes to the United States and engaging in turf battles for disputed distribution territories. Hundreds of Mexican citizens and law enforcement personnel have become casualties of the firearms-related violence. DTOs operating in Mexico rely on firearms suppliers to enforce and maintain their illicit narcotics operations. Intelligence indicates these criminal organizations have tasked their money laundering, distribution and transportation infrastructures reaching into the United States to acquire firearms and ammunition. These Mexican DTO infrastructures have become the leading gun trafficking organizations operating in the southwest U.S.

ATF has dedicated approximately 100 special agents and 25 industry operations investigators to the SWB initiative over the past two years. ATF has recently assigned special agents to Las Cruces, N.M., and Yuma, Ariz. These assignments are part of a broad plan to increase the strategic coverage and disrupt the firearms trafficking corridors operating along the border.

Cases referred for prosecution under Project Gunrunner.
FY 2006 Cases w/Defendants – 122 Defendants referred for prosecution- 306
FY 2007 Cases w/Defendants – 187 Defendants referred for prosecution- 465
Project Reckoning.
"Project Reckoning," a multi-agency law enforcement
effort led by the DEA, targeted the Mexican drug trafficking
cartel known as the Gulf Cartel. Among those indicted are the
three alleged leaders of the Gulf Cartel: EZEQUIEL
CARDENAS-GUILLEN, HERIBERTO LAZCANO-LAZCANO and JORGE EDUARDO
COSTILLA-SANCHEZ. These individuals, each designated as
Consolidated Priority Organization Targets (CPOTs) by the
Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF), have been
indicted in U.S. District Court in the District of Columbia on
charges that they conspired to import drugs into the United
States from Mexico. A CPOT designation is reserved for
significant narcotics traffickers who are believed to be the
leaders of drug trafficking organizations responsible for the
importation of large quantities of narcotics into the United
States.
The Gulf Cartel is responsible for the transportation
of multi-ton quantities of cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin and
marijuana from Colombia, Guatemala, Panama and Mexico to the
United States, as well as the distribution of those narcotics
within the United States. The Gulf Cartel is also believed to be
responsible for laundering multiple millions of dollars in
criminal proceeds. Individuals indicted in the cases are charged
with a variety of crimes, including: drug trafficking charges
related to cocaine and marijuana; solicitation and conspiracy to
kidnap; attempted murder; conspiracy to use a firearm in a
violent crime; conspiracy to kill and kidnap in a foreign
country; interstate and foreign travel in aid of racketeering;
money laundering; and other related crimes.
To date, Project Reckoning has resulted in the arrest
of 507 individuals and the seizure of approximately $60.1 million
in U.S. currency, 16,711 kilograms of cocaine, 1,039 pounds of
methamphetamine, 19 pounds of heroin, 51,258 pounds of marijuana,
176 vehicles and 167 weapons. Project Reckoning, a 15-month
investigation, combined into one centrally coordinated effort
several multi-district enforcement operations that all involved
individuals with close ties to the Gulf Cartel. Operation Dos
Equis, Operation Vertigo, Operation Stinger and Operation The
Family as well as numerous local operations combined to form
Project Reckoning.
Operation Xcellerator.
To date, Operation Xcellerator has led to the arrest of 755 individuals and the seizure of approximately $59.1 million in U.S. currency, more than 12,000 kilograms of cocaine, more than 16,000 pounds of marijuana, more than 1,200 pounds of methamphetamine, more than 8 kilograms of heroin, approximately 1.3 million pills of Ecstasy, more than $6.5 million in other assets, 149 vehicles, 3 aircraft, 3 maritime vessels and 169 weapons.
Operation Imperial Emperor.
The 20-month investigation, which was led by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), has thus far resulted in the seizure of approximately $45.2 million in U.S. currency, 27,229 pounds of marijuana, 9,512 pounds of cocaine, 705 pounds of methamphetamine, 227 pounds of pure methamphetamine or “ice,” and 11 pounds of heroin. The investigation has also netted $6.1 million in property and assets, as well as roughly 100 weapons and 94 vehicles.

Now of course, had you actually read the link you posted, and investigated the links within the article a bit futher, you would have eventually found all this information...information that completely nails the coffin shut on your theory that "because no U.S. gun dealers were raided there is no proof that U.S. guns are going to Mexico." You now have the actual ATF testimony to the Senate supported by links to four major operation which produced hundreds of individual cases linked to thousands of firearms that were traced by the ATF.
Nice, you go from:



to now admitting it's abuse. :doh
Well what exactly do you think I mean when I say they abused the figure? I was referring to them using it to over emphasize the extent of the issue. Unlike you, I'm not closing myself off to possibilities (regarding the gun grab reference I made), however the degree of probability has yet to be established. Anything is possible.

To be continued...
 
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