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Thread: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

  1. #71
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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    Exactly. The liberals just don't understand.
    We did understand, and that is why the Dems are in power now. The GOP mucked it up so badly that the country responded. The only people telling you that you all got it right is yourselves. Over half the nation and a large portion of the rest of the world will tell you otherwise.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    We did understand, and that is why the Dems are in power now. The GOP mucked it up so badly that the country responded. The only people telling you that you all got it right is yourselves. Over half the nation and a large portion of the rest of the world will tell you otherwise.
    Oh yeah, precisely why Obama is staying the course in Iraq.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Absolutely relevant to the issue...
    You fail to recongize that the issue here is people doing what they think is right over their desire to maintain political power.
    Thus, there's no relevance whatsoever.

    since you are citing his "staying the course" as the right thing to do. Staying the course is directly linked to the unnecessary invasion of Iraq.
    See above. It doesnt matter one whit who else thinks staying the course or invading Iraq was the right thing to do -- GWB did, and given the issue at hand, that's all that matters.

    This is your convenient way of ignoring all the things Bush got wrong with his strategies. The ones that changed over time. "Staying the course" is a euphemism for "we broke it, we can't walk away until we figure out a way to fix it in some way that benefits us."
    See above. It doesnt matter one whit who else thinks staying thr course or invating Iraq was the right thing to do -- GWB did, and given the issue at hand, that's all that matters.

    Oh horse ****. This is where you try to mask what he did as some kind of necessary act. Defend our country? This isn't even laughable.
    YOUR opinion here as to why YOU think he did it doesnt matter; all that matters is that HE thought he was doing the right thing.

    I absolutely understand what is being argued and you are wrong. You believe GWB did the right thing despite the political ramifications because he thought it was best for the country. I'm countering your assertion and claiming he did it to forward an agenda as Iraq was NOT necessary and therefore not right
    and staying the course was NOT the right thing to do.
    You absolutely do NOT understand what is being argued.
    -I- never stated that GWB did the right thing, or what GWB did was the right thing to do, I stated that -GWB- believed he was doing the right thing and that -he- thought what he did was the right thing to do.

    Get it yet?

    No, this is where you move the goal posts in order to back out of your illogical defense of Bush's actions in Iraq.
    More proof that you do NOT understand what is being argued.
    I'm not defending ot attacking Bush's actions regarding anything.

    When you figure out what's REALLY being discussed here, get back to me.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 04-20-09 at 05:18 PM.

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    Then obviously the public stood with Bush.
    Bush was a two term President because we were at war during his second election. The way that the right wing spin machine fear mongered the U.S. public and slandered the character of John Kerry is the topic of much heated debate. We saw them try it again with Barack Obama, and the public obviously didn't like it this time around.
    Yep, and as I've already pointed out, he's cozying up with the bad guys.
    Translation: The President is reaching out to our historical enemies to try and improve relations, but I don't like that, so I'll characterize Obama's efforts as something other than they are to make it sound irresponsible and bad.

    Well, well, well...what have we here? A little dishonesty or just laziness? Maybe both? Nice sources, too bad you didn't actually read them as they don't support your assertion at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWound
    He's starting to unroll the police state
    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt
    Oh yeah, he's unrolled an even more vast eavesdropping program.
    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWound
    Source?
    And you give us this?
    You claimed Obama "unrolled an even more vast eavesdropping program." Well that's all fine and dandy, except for one thing. Those agencies were operating under pre-existing directives that were set in 2008 under the Bush administration. What you cited was not an example of Obama expanding the program. It was an audit on operations in which the NSA overstepped it's authority over the last several months. Well let's see, Obama has been in office since mid-January, it's now mid-April...that's what? Three months? And how many new policies regarding expanding the NSA has Obama dropped and gotten approval on? Can you dig that up for us? I mean, since you made the allegation and all. In fact, the articles you cited even referenced action being taken by the Obama administration to immediately address the problems and bring the agency into compliance with the current federal laws that regulate their activity. Nothing you've cited here supports your claim that Obama "unrolled an even more vast eavesdropping program." Try again.

    Keyword: seeks

    He's cut nothing.
    But he will certainly try, and we shall see if he actually succeeds.


    And they're still perpetual. He hasn't ended anything.
    And he's only been in office three and a half months. These next 3 1/2 years are going to drive you and Goobieman insane.

    Last edited by Lerxst; 04-20-09 at 05:35 PM.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    Oh yeah, precisely why Obama is staying the course in Iraq.
    Has Obama set a timeline for withdrawal? Yes, I think he has.

    Analysts Say Obama's Iraq Timeline Well-Considered, But Call For Flexibility.

    That's not staying GWB's course. Now you can spin it all you want, but I remember the whole "a time line for withdrawal will lead to defeat in Iraq! Obama is going to cost us a loss in Iraq!" argument. But now, the time line is "staying the course?"

    Right. How convenient.



    So what did Sarah Paln know about the Bush Doctrine?
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You fail to recongize that the issue here is people doing what they think is right over their desire to maintain political power.
    Thus, there's no relevance whatsoever.
    And you are simply trying to refreame the argument. It's what you do when you are caught.

    It's not the motivation that is important, it's the outcome.

    See above. It doesnt matter one whit who else thinks staying the course or invading Iraq was the right thing to do -- GWB did, and given the issue at hand, that's all that matters.
    No, it's not all that matters. The original debate was the fact that Obama backing off the AWB was a "good thing." What doesn't matter is why he did it. You are simply trying to reframe the argument so you can criticize him in some way.

    See above. It doesnt matter one whit who else thinks staying thr course or invating Iraq was the right thing to do -- GWB did, and given the issue at hand, that's all that matters.
    No matter how many times you try to reframe this, it won't work.

    YOUR opinion here as to why YOU think he did it doesnt matter; all that matters is that HE thought he was doing the right thing.
    And you are wrong again. What matters is what actually played out and whether or not it was actually a good thing for this nation. History is on my side with regard to this.

    You absolutely do NOT understand what is being argued.
    -I- never stated that GWB did the right thing, or what GWB did was the right thing to do, I stated that -GWB- believed he was doing the right thing and that -he- thought what he did was the right thing to do.
    You started the argument regarding "doing the right thing despite the consequences." You cited GWB and I asked for an example of the "right thing." You said the most obvious was staying the course in Iraq. It wasn't until I pointed out that this wasn't even remotely the right thing to do that you changed your argument to say "what -he- thought was the right thing to do."
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Some people believe in 'doing the right thing' regardless of the political consquences (see: GWB) and other people put 'doing the right thing' behind the retention of political power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst
    Exactly what "right thing" are you talking about?
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    The most obvious was staying the course in Iraq.
    You staked your claim and got called on it.
    Get it yet?
    Yeah I get, you waffled and tried to reframe the argument when you got busted. Fine.

    More proof that you do NOT understand what is being argued.
    I'm not defending ot attacking Bush's actions regarding anything.
    More proof that you are doing your best to reframe the argument.
    When you figure out what's REALLY being discussed here, get back to me.
    I know what's being discussed, and I know what you are trying to do. I figured you out a long time ago Goobieman.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Bush was a two term President because we were at war during his second election.
    Bush was a two term President because he received the needed electorial college votes to win.

    Bush received 271 Electoral College votes.
    Gore received 266 Electoral College votes.

    Bush received 286 Electoral College votes.
    Kerry received 251 Electoral College votes.

    You can certainly offer up your opinion, I'll stick with the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    The way that the right wing spin machine fear mongered the U.S. public and slandered the character of John Kerry is the topic of much heated debate.
    You and your conspiracy theories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Translation: The President is reaching out to our historical enemies to try and improve relations, but I don't like that, so I'll characterize Obama's efforts as something other than they are to make it sound irresponsible and bad.
    No translation necessary. A picture is worth a thousand words. I provided one so that even you could follow along.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You claimed Obama "unrolled an even more vast eavesdropping program." Well that's all fine and dandy, except for one thing.
    Yep, and that one thing is, Obama went from "No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me" to "exceeds legal limits in eavesdropping program"

    I've told you time and time again to read the written word, instead you jump around like a little boy ready to piss his pants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    But he will certainly try, and we shall see if he actually succeeds.
    Trying isn't doing. You keep on trying to spin it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    And he's only been in office three and a half months.
    And he hasn't ended the perpetual wars.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

  8. #78
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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Has Obama set a timeline for withdrawal? Yes, I think he has.
    He can set all the timelines he wants. We still have troops in Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Now you can spin it all you want, but I remember the whole "a time line for withdrawal will lead to defeat in Iraq! Obama is going to cost us a loss in Iraq!" argument. But now, the time line is "staying the course?"
    I've not made any such argument here, but you're certainly entitled to share your band camp stories with us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    So what did Sarah Paln know about the Bush Doctrine?
    Obsess much?
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

  9. #79
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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    And you are simply trying to refreame the argument.
    On the contrary -- I am arguing the argument as it was originally argued.
    You simply do not understand the argument.

    To wit:

    It's not the motivation that is important, it's the outcome.
    Not in the context discussed here.
    If you understood the argument you would understand that.

    No, it's not all that matters. The original debate was the fact that Obama backing off the AWB was a "good thing." What doesn't matter is why he did it.
    On the contrary -- WHY he did it certainly does matter.

    As I said -- massah didnt stop beating you because he thought it was the right thing to do, he did it because he didnt wan to get cut off.

    You are simply trying to reframe the argument so you can criticize him in some way.
    And rightly so -- unless, of course, you think there's nothing wrong with putting aside 'the right thing to do' in orfer to preserve their power -- that is, unless you think there is nothing wrong with an elected official doing what he thinks is best for himself rather than doing what he thinks is best for the country.

    Do you or do you not think there is nothing wrong with an elected official doing what he thinks is best for himself rather than doing what he thinks is best for the country?

    No matter how many times you try to reframe this, it won't work.
    A remarkable comment, from someone that doesnt understand what's being argued, or why.

    And you are wrong again. What matters is what actually played out and whether or not it was actually a good thing for this nation. History is on my side with regard to this.
    Not in the context discussed here.
    If you understood the argument you would understand that.

    You started the argument regarding "doing the right thing despite the consequences." You cited GWB and I asked for an example of the "right thing." You said the most obvious was staying the course in Iraq. It wasn't until I pointed out that this wasn't even remotely the right thing to do that you changed your argument to say "what -he- thought was the right thing to do."
    You dont understand the context of my statement. At this point, this misunderstanding may well be deliberate in order to prevent you from losing face.

    The point I have ALWAYS made here is in regards to the motivation behind the actions, deciding to chose 'the preservation of political power' over 'the right thing to do'. In this context, the person making the choice defines 'the right thing to do'.

    For GWB, the 'right thing to do' was to stay the course in Iraq. He chose this over the preservation of political power as he knew the choice to stay was unpopular and would most certainly cost him politically.

    If you understood the argument -- and/or if you actually paid attention -- you would understand that.

    But, you dont -- and rather than try to do so, you'll continue to attack me.
    Dont worry -- its expected. I figured you out a long time ago.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 04-20-09 at 06:20 PM.

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    No translation necessary. A picture is worth a thousand words. I provided one so that even you could follow along.

    Again, you don't like it so you will characterize it to be something other than it really is. Obama is communicating with our enemies, exercising dialog. Why does that frighten you so. If Chavez decided that he liked the U.S. and wanted to forge a good relationship what would your reaction be?

    Yep, and that one thing is, Obama went from "No warrantless wiretaps if you elect me" to "exceeds legal limits in eavesdropping program"
    Wrong again silly boy. Obama didn't "exceed" anything. The analysts and operators at the NSA did. For Obama to be complicit here, he would have had to forge policy or actually expand the authority of the NSA in such a way as to directly allow them to exceed legal limits or he would have had to order someone to do it. Nice try.

    I've told you time and time again to read the written word, instead you jump around like a little boy ready to piss his pants.
    I did read the written word, and that's what got you tripped up. You aren't really very good at this and it shows.


    Trying isn't doing. You keep on trying to spin it though.
    And you keep being a dishonest participant in these discussions. It's what you do.


    And he hasn't ended the perpetual wars.
    In three and a half months. Your hyperpartisan gland is acting up as evidenced by your projectile vomiting of intellectual turds all over this thread.
    *insert profound statement here*

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