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Thread: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Let's review your contribution here. The OP was about Obama backing off renewing the AWB. Which is a very good thing. Yet you immediately launch an attack based around immigration related issues and are called on it. You don't comment on his actual backing off of the AWB. Partisanship before all else. Then you proceed to try and show Obama is lying about guns coming from the U.S. because you don't hear about ATF raids on U.S. gun shops. Then when when your logic is exposed as flawed, you abandon the broad argument and focus your attention on the "90%" issue. Towards the end the only thing you can focus on is the "90%" issue and completely run from your original position.

    Recapping your case....
    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    They keep talking about tracing all these weapons back to the United States, yet they give no specifics. If they've been traced back here, how come DOJ/ATF/FBI aren't conducting raids to shut down the arms dealers?

    Again, suspiciously void of details. Where is the proof, all those weapons are originating from here?
    Your insinuation is perfectly clear. You are running the line that the Obama administration is being deceptive about guns being traced back to the U.S. because you've not heard of any U.S. gun dealers being raided by authorities. That's a negative proof argument. "No raids means he is probably lying."

    So here you've taken Obama to task for not providing some amount of evidence during a brief foreign policy speech in Mexico. Because Obama didn't present you all this evidence in the speech he's being deceptive about these guns coming from the U.S. This exposes two things about you. You're lazy and you have no depth of understanding regarding U.S./Mexican operations against drug cartels and the associated problems. Just a very small amount of internet research would provide you with enough information to satisfy any questions you might have about the flow of guns from the U.S. to Mexico. As I had shown you with your own link.

    Then, when challenged by RNYC you post this....
    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt
    I then pointed out the real rhetoric, which is the Obama administration claiming that these guns can be traced back to the United States.

    Yet, we've seen no proof of it.
    Once again you are railing on Obama as being dishonest about these guns being traced back to the U.S. Is this out of your partisanship alone? Or is this once again a demonstration of your lack of initiative to actually educate yourself? If you have a question do you not seek answers? Or do you just go with your gut and say to hell with the rest?

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt
    Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.

    Oops, your statement is shot all to hell. Perhaps you can find these shops Obama is referring too. Clinton and Obama have both stated that stopping the flow of guns from the US into Mexico is key to our border security. Yet were not seeing or hearing about any efforts to crack down on these "gun shops that line our shared border".
    Here we are once again with you focusing on the line of argument that Obama is lying about guns coming from shop in the U.S. because we are not hearing about raids on these shops. Negative proof argument. But then again, as pointed out earlier...you make this argument from a position of ignorance. Even a cursory amount of research would have provided plenty of evidence. But somehow, because Obama didn't do this for you, he is being dishonest. What is ironic is the fact that you posted a link, which contained other links within it, that would have given you all the info you needed had you actually read it all and researched the article a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt
    Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.

    He openly lied, on the world stage, after these numbers were proven to be false. Clinton tried foisting them on the public three weeks earlier:
    Uh oh, now we see the damage control start. Now it's not just about a lack of news regarding raids, it's the "90% lie" he told. This is very interesting because now you are focusing on a specific comment and doing nothing to shore up the holes in your original argument. You provide a link, which you think makes your case, and that disputes Obama's use of the 90% figure as being out of context. Let's examine that link. What is funny is the first sentence of the article summary:
    FactCheck.Org: Counting Mexico's Guns
    Quote Originally Posted by From the article
    There's no dispute that thousands of handguns, military style rifles and other firearms are purchased in the U.S. and end up in the hands of Mexican criminals each year. It's relatively easy to buy such guns legally in Texas and other border states and to smuggle them across.
    Ouch, that's interesting as it directly challenges your original argument. Apparently FactCheck.Org knows something you don't. Let's see, if in light of this new information, you eventually admit that guns do in fact find their way from U.S. gun shops to Mexico.

    In this post I proceed to point out the many flaws in your argument, deconstructing it from the foundation up. But what are you almost solely focused on now? Not the OP, not the case of yours I destroyed, but with keeping the spotlight on the liberty Obama took with the 90% figure. Which in no way supports your original argument. Divert! Divert!

    In the middle of your backpedaling and damage control you post this...
    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt
    I've already supported my arguments with your link, and my link.

    Just like Obama & Crew, you fail to produce any sources to this particular point in the debate.
    Oh really? Which part of your argument did you support with my link and your link? Oh yes, just the 90% part. You still haven't substantiated your original argument, only your diversion argument in which you insinuated that Obama was lying about guns going across the border.. And I still haven't seen you make any intelligent response to RNYC's inquiry regarding your immigration babbling.

    In this post I use your own FactCheck.Org article as the springboard for a little bit of research to provide you all the proof you need about ATF/DEA/FBI/DOJ operations that are the supporting foundation for testimony that gave birth to the 90% figure. You repeatedly questioned the validity of the claim that guns were finding their way to Mexico from the U.S., claiming there was no proof of this, and so I provide it to you. Your reaction to having your original argument dumped on it's head? Nothing. You can't respond to it because you've had your e-mouth slapped shut with information gleaned from your own article. That's twice you managed to set your opponent up to defeat your own argument. Instead, you turn up the volume on the 90% figure issue and ignore completely that your assumptions and insinuations have been thrown back in your face.

    So after all this, how does your focus on Obama using the 90% figure out of context support your original argument that there is no proof of guns flowing from U.S. gunshops to Mexico?
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States
    I've proven Obama's statement here to be false. He blatantly lied about this statement on the world stage, after Clinton got caught in the lie 3 weeks earlier.

    More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.
    Now add the second half of Obama's statement, and my question was (in bold):

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt
    They keep talking about tracing all these weapons back to the United States, yet they give no specifics. If they've been traced back here, how come DOJ/ATF/FBI aren't conducting raids to shut down the arms dealers?
    I posted a link that proves Obama lied about the number. The link I provided explains how they arrived at those numbers, and explains how the guns are being traced back here, represented by the purple text.

    Now the bold is a legitimate question that I posed. There's no insinuation of deception, treachery or even an accusation being leveled at anyone. Merely a question.

    You Lerxst, have this habit of trying to make up your own arguments, based on your own inability to read the written word, and comprehend it as written.

    ================================================== =

    You have priors of taking the written word and twisting those words into tangents, conspiricies and flat out lies. Let's examine some.

    The phantom memo thread, the one you got laughed out of, saw so many stellar statements from you. Your opening salvo:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst

    Well this is not a surprise at all. It's very consistent with the White House's conduct in order to try and justify their mistakes. Who it specifically came from is irrelevant, the fact that the high levels of our leadership even attempted this is telling enough.
    There's so many posts of yours there, I've linked it.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1057691742

    The blatant lying and accusations from you, I reduced you to rubble here:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1057944686

    Now in this very thread, the Lerxst imagination goes running off on yet another conspiracy/tangent/strawman argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst

    It's absolutely relevant when you are making a case that he is using the statement as a tool to build support for a gun grab.
    You're constantly creating your own arguments, or just flat out lying to try and make your case. The quote above is a perfect example. Nowhere have I remotely said, implied, insinuated or even suggested such a notion.

    You go ahead and keep trying to fit the square peg into the round hole though, and this thread too, will make into the Lerxst Folly Hall of Fame.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

  3. #33
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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    I've proven Obama's statement here to be false. He blatantly lied about this statement on the world stage, after Clinton got caught in the lie 3 weeks earlier.



    Now add the second half of Obama's statement, and my question was (in bold):



    I posted a link that proves Obama lied about the number. The link I provided explains how they arrived at those numbers, and explains how the guns are being traced back here, represented by the purple text.

    Now the bold is a legitimate question that I posed. There's no insinuation of deception, treachery or even an accusation being leveled at anyone. Merely a question.

    You Lerxst, have this habit of trying to make up your own arguments, based on your own inability to read the written word, and comprehend it as written.
    In other words, you will continue to highlight the 90% issue and avoid the fact that your original argument was completely debunked. You can try to duck and dodge all you want. You're busted. I've already taken you apart, and no matter how many times you try to rephrase your argument, it doesn't change and it's still here for all to see. I quoted you step by step.

    Now in this very thread, the Lerxst imagination goes running off on yet another conspiracy/tangent/strawman argument.


    Originally Posted by Lerxst

    It's absolutely relevant when you are making a case that he is using the statement as a tool to build support for a gun grab.
    You're constantly creating your own arguments, or just flat out lying to try and make your case. The quote above is a perfect example. Nowhere have I remotely said, implied, insinuated or even suggested such a notion.

    You go ahead and keep trying to fit the square peg into the round hole though, and this thread too, will make into the Lerxst Folly Hall of Fame.
    I know what case you were trying to make here. You wouldn't have brought up his history on gun control and support of a gun ban if you weren't in fact trying to tie it to his out of context use of the 90% figure. Look, you're just not that sly. Stay out of the deep end of the pool and you won't drown.

    As to the rest, you just keep on living in your dream world.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Obama Repeats '90 Percent' Stat for U.S. Guns Recovered in Mexico
    PORT-OF-SPAIN, Trinidad and Tobago -- What's the difference between "recovered" and "traceable" when it comes to firearms seized in Mexico's bloody war against drug cartels?

    The White House says none.

    But that's a distinction with a difference, even if President Obama used the words interchangeably last week to talk about the role firearms smuggled from the U.S. play in Mexico's stepped up fight against entrenched, well-armed drug cartels.

    "This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border," the president said on the subject in his joint press conference with Mexican President Felipe Calderon on Thursday:

    To some, it might sound as if Obama is saying 90 percent of all guns captured from the cartels originated in America. But that's not what the president means, senior National Security Council Spokesman Denis McDonough told FOX News on Saturday.

    "By recovered he means traceable, guns traced back to the United States," McDonough said. "These are ATF (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms) numbers. These are the guns submitted to the ATF for tracing. That's what we mean by recovered."
    Well so much for your lie theory.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post

    I know what case you were trying to make here. You wouldn't have brought up his history on gun control and support of a gun ban if you weren't in fact trying to tie it to his out of context use of the 90% figure. Look, you're just not that sly. Stay out of the deep end of the pool and you won't drown.
    Your posts are getting more & more ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    To some, it might sound as if Obama is saying 90 percent of all guns captured from the cartels originated in America. But that's not what the president means, senior National Security Council Spokesman Denis McDonough told FOX News on Saturday.
    Oh yea, it's the truth, just ask him.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    Oh yea, it's the truth, just ask him.
    So when he says "that's not what I meant when I said..." you are going to say "oh yes it is!"

    Very nice. Playground argument tactics.

    Here is the bottom line, at worst, now this is just a misstatement. An instance of him making a statement and not being clear about what he was saying. And only you and few of your cronies will really care, because now that it's clarified...it's really a non-issue.

    You-"Oh Obama lied about the 90%!"
    Obama-"I didn't actually mean 'all guns recovered', I meant 'all traceable guns that are submitted to the ATF', sorry about that."
    You-"Oh hell no, you said it, you said it!!!"
    Obama-"Yeah but that's not what I meant."
    You-"Too bad loser you said it!"
    Obama-"Yeah okay, anyway...no, I don't want an iced mocahchino with that."
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    So when he says "that's not what I meant when I said..." you are going to say "oh yes it is!"

    Very nice. Playground argument tactics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Wait, I forget that when learning to make a fried corn on the cob...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Take your act back to Carl's Jr.
    Please keep posting, seriously, keep 'em coming
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Sadly, I am thinking that the Obama administration is only backing away from the AWB temporarily. The Dems did learn a big lesson in '94 about how poisonous gun bans are but at their heart, they are still antigun, anti second amendment. The AWB will come back, maybe through some back door effort like a 100% tax or something.

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    I'm also glad he backed down on this also.

    I almost hate to say this but a lot of what I'm going to say is the truth,and lot's of people don't think about this.

    Living in California there are a lot of illegal, and green card legals here, who have been taking guns back to Mexico for years.

    This festering boil has been ignored by our government and Mexico,for the most part,and now Mexico wants to whine about it, and our government also.

    If our government and Mexico had enforced the immigration laws we would not be in this situation today,because a lot of the drugs are brought in by illegals.

    Now how many of these guns are stolen, or traded for dope.

    As long as you have black market you will always have somebody to sell it to,and somebody to buy it,this has happened for thousands of years.

    I'm sure if it happens in California, it happens in all the other states also.

    Another problem we have are terrorist that enter our country through this wide open border,and I'm sure more people enter here illegally than ever get caught,at the border,and that's the REAL SCARY part of this.

  10. #40
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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by ch85books View Post
    Sadly, I am thinking that the Obama administration is only backing away from the AWB temporarily. The Dems did learn a big lesson in '94 about how poisonous gun bans are but at their heart, they are still antigun, anti second amendment. The AWB will come back, maybe through some back door effort like a 100% tax or something.
    Not all Dems are anti-gun. I think a lot of it depends upon the amount of liberalism that influences whether or not a particular Dem is anti-gun. I'm a Dem and slightly liberal, but very pro-gun, pro-border fence, pro-punishment of employers who hire illegals, pro-military, pro-Israeli (for the most part).
    *insert profound statement here*

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