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Thread: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico.



    I'm glad to see him walk away from this. This is good news for us. Obama has exhibited common sense and good judgement.
    Instead of Obama renewing a unconstitutional ban I see Obama trying to find another back door to use for stripping away 2nd amendment rights such as back ground checks,closing "gun show loop hole", gun limits, waiting periods, permits, registrations and any other unconstitutional thing. The majority of states do not require people to do these things,if you don't believe then look up the brady website. The most logical solution as GottaHurt suggested is to prevent US arms from making into Mexico is to adequately secure the border and require everyone to go through check points on the border. Instead of using the most logical solution Obama and all the other clowns in office who pretend to give a **** about what happens in Mexico will use this as an opportunity to chip away our second amendment rights through incrementation. I could care less about Mexico's crime problem. Crime in another country is not excuse to effect our rights in the US.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 04-18-09 at 05:39 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    What does any of this have to do with what we were just talking about? Did you just randomly select some anti-immigration rhetoric and post it without regard for the topic?
    Don't you mean anti-illegal immigration/anti-illegals rhetoric? Its like lumping Eurotrash and Europeans together,there is a difference.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #23
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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Don't you mean anti-illegal immigration/anti-illegals rhetoric? Its like lumping Eurotrash and Europeans together,there is a difference.
    You're right, my apologies.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    No, it's a blatant lie. The information was out there as early as March 17th.
    Because Obama and his speech writers chose to ignore the facts doesn't change the fact, that he lied.
    I'll not argue this point, you believe it to be a deliberate lie, I'm not ready to make that leap.

    Hook line & sinker. Suspiciously void of detail is the phrase I've used time and time again as the Obama administration misleads the public, by leaving out the details.
    Bull****. Your asserting that since you've not heard of raids being conducted on U.S. gun dealers that Obama is lying. You're being dishonest again.

    I've never claimed this.
    No, but you did say that if in fact guns could be traced back to U.S. gun dealers there would have been ATF raids on the dealers. In fact, a good portion of your argument is based around this logic. So I ask, if they weren't selling to the cartels or some agent of the cartels, why would you forward the notion that we should be raiding the gun dealers? I'll tell you why, you are dishonest and you further...you really don't understand what you are talking about.

    One time, at band camp....
    Yeah, I'd avoid actually trying to rebut that if I were you too. But you really have no way to debunk what I've said because it is a scenario that has played out thousands of times at gun shows all over the country. And it is just one example of why your house of cards is so easy to blow down.

    No anemic leaps here, only laughter as you use the phrase "honest debate."
    Yet your reputation here is so well established by members on all sides of the political spectrum. Yeah, the problem here is me alright. You've not substantiated your case with anything other than your staccato posting of opinion and bad logic interspersed with an occasional reference to some actual truth.


    My criticism of Obama is well founded in this case. He's been caught in a blatant lie, then grandstanded his position on AWB. He can't win the AWB fight, his own party won't support it, so he spun it.
    He backed away from it. That is what is most important here.


    I've assumed nothing, and have been critical of DOJ/ATF/FBI. Your lackadaisical approach to searching out the facts is your problem, not mine.
    You have assumed a very large amount of information and been called on it. And you haven't actually been critical of the ATF or any other agency in this thread. You've not proven anything other than Obama mischaracterized the 90% statistic in his speech. I can and have run circles around you in numerous debates regarding the bringing of facts. Thus far, as I have pointed out, the main foundation of your post that started this was based completely on your ignorant assumptions and lack of knowledge regarding how guns are traced in criminal investigations.


    Translation:

    Obama blatantly lied in the same fashion Hillary lied about coming under sniper fire.

    Your hilarious spin definitely puts you in the running for the Junior Community Organizer Lapel Pin you so desperately seek from Obama.
    Translation: "I still really can't make my case so I'll make a runty little anti-Obama remark." Keep dancing.


    I've already supported my arguments with your link, and my link.
    No, you have not. Not in any way, and I've shown why. What you are doing now is simply denying the obvious. You're logic is flawed and you wiggling like a fish on the floor of the boat. A spot you frequently find yourself in whether it be at my hand or any other number of posters who get on here and expose your inadequacies.

    Stay tuned...the real hammer is about to drop.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Just like Obama & Crew, you fail to produce any sources to this particular point in the debate.
    Stop being obtuse. You're actually stating that because you personally were presented with all the case files that the ATF is lying. That Obama is lying. Wait, I forget that when learning to make a fried corn on the cob they don't teach you how to actually do research for yourself, only make assumptions that are tempered by your own political predispositions and and layered with flawed logic. Here let me help you out and in the process shut your bloviating.

    Hoover and Placido's statement to the Senate Committee on the Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime and Drugs.
    Defining the Problem
    The southwest border is the principal arrival zone for most illicit drugs trafficked into the U.S., as well as the predominant staging area for the subsequent distribution of these drugs throughout the U.S. Guns are an integral part of these criminal enterprises; they are the “tools of the trade.” Drug traffickers routinely use firearms against each other and have used these weapons against the Mexican military, law enforcement officials, and Mexican civilians. Because firearms are not readily available in Mexico, drug traffickers have aggressively turned to the U.S. as their primary source. Firearms are routinely being transported from the U.S. into Mexico in violation of both U.S. and Mexican law. In fact, according to ATF’s National Tracing Center, 90 percent of the weapons that could be traced were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S. One thing must remain clear in any discussion of violence in Mexico, or violence practiced by Mexican traffickers operating in the U.S.: drug gangs are inherently violent, and nowhere is this more true than in Mexico, where “Wild West”-
    9
    style shootouts between the criminals and the cops, and elements of opposing trafficking groups are unfortunately considered normal.
    To elaborate, the rising incidences of trafficking U.S.-sourced firearms into Mexico is influenced by a number of factors, including increased demand for firearms by drug trafficking organizations, and the strictly regulated and generally prohibited possession and manufacturing of firearms in Mexico. Remarkable amounts of cash are accumulated on the U.S. side of the border and it is believed that, in certain cases, it is used to procure firearms and ammunition that eventually makes their way south to Mexico. Weapons sources typically include secondary markets, such as gun shows and flea markets since—depending on State law—the private sale of firearms at those venues often does not require background checks prior to the sale or record keeping.
    A comprehensive analysis of firearms trace data over the past three years indicates that Texas, Arizona and California are the three largest source States, respectively, for firearms illegally trafficked to Mexico. In FY 2007 alone, Mexico submitted approximately 1,112 guns for tracing that originated in Texas, Arizona and California. The remaining 47 States accounted for 435 traces in FY 2007.
    Some of the operations that were referenced and substantiate the claims within the statement.
    Project Gunrunner.
    ATF is deploying its resources strategically on the Southwest Border to deny firearms, the “tools of the trade,” to criminal organizations in Mexico and along the border, and to combat firearms-related violence affecting communities on both sides of the border. In partnership with other U.S. agencies and with the Government of Mexico, ATF refined its Southwest Border strategy. ATF developed Project Gunrunner to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico and thereby deprive the narcotics cartels of weapons. The initiative seeks to focus ATF’s investigative, intelligence and training resources to suppress the firearms trafficking to Mexico and stem the firearms-related violence on both sides of the border.

    Firearms tracing, in particular the expansion of the eTrace firearms tracing system, is a critical component of Project Gunrunner in Mexico. ATF recently deployed eTrace technology in U.S. consulates in Monterrey, Hermosillo and Guadalajara, with six additional deployments to the remaining U.S. consulates in Mexico scheduled by March 2008. ATF has conducted discussions with the government of Mexico regarding the decentralization of the firearms tracing process to deploy Spanish-language eTrace to other Mexico agencies.

    In the past two years, ATF has seized thousands of firearms headed to Mexico. Trends indicate the firearms illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border are becoming more powerful. ATF has analyzed firearms seizures in Mexico from FY 2005-07 and identified the following weapons most commonly used by drug traffickers:
    · 9mm pistols;
    · .38 Super pistols;
    · 5.7mm pistols;
    · .45-caliber pistols;
    · AR-15 type rifles; and
    · AK-47 type rifles.

    - more -

    Most of the firearms violence in Mexico is perpetrated by drug trafficking organizations (DTOs) who are vying for control of drug trafficking routes to the United States and engaging in turf battles for disputed distribution territories. Hundreds of Mexican citizens and law enforcement personnel have become casualties of the firearms-related violence. DTOs operating in Mexico rely on firearms suppliers to enforce and maintain their illicit narcotics operations. Intelligence indicates these criminal organizations have tasked their money laundering, distribution and transportation infrastructures reaching into the United States to acquire firearms and ammunition. These Mexican DTO infrastructures have become the leading gun trafficking organizations operating in the southwest U.S.

    ATF has dedicated approximately 100 special agents and 25 industry operations investigators to the SWB initiative over the past two years. ATF has recently assigned special agents to Las Cruces, N.M., and Yuma, Ariz. These assignments are part of a broad plan to increase the strategic coverage and disrupt the firearms trafficking corridors operating along the border.

    Cases referred for prosecution under Project Gunrunner.
    FY 2006 Cases w/Defendants – 122 Defendants referred for prosecution- 306
    FY 2007 Cases w/Defendants – 187 Defendants referred for prosecution- 465
    Project Reckoning.
    "Project Reckoning," a multi-agency law enforcement
    effort led by the DEA, targeted the Mexican drug trafficking
    cartel known as the Gulf Cartel. Among those indicted are the
    three alleged leaders of the Gulf Cartel: EZEQUIEL
    CARDENAS-GUILLEN, HERIBERTO LAZCANO-LAZCANO and JORGE EDUARDO
    COSTILLA-SANCHEZ. These individuals, each designated as
    Consolidated Priority Organization Targets (CPOTs) by the
    Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF), have been
    indicted in U.S. District Court in the District of Columbia on
    charges that they conspired to import drugs into the United
    States from Mexico. A CPOT designation is reserved for
    significant narcotics traffickers who are believed to be the
    leaders of drug trafficking organizations responsible for the
    importation of large quantities of narcotics into the United
    States.
    The Gulf Cartel is responsible for the transportation
    of multi-ton quantities of cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin and
    marijuana from Colombia, Guatemala, Panama and Mexico to the
    United States, as well as the distribution of those narcotics
    within the United States. The Gulf Cartel is also believed to be
    responsible for laundering multiple millions of dollars in
    criminal proceeds. Individuals indicted in the cases are charged
    with a variety of crimes, including: drug trafficking charges
    related to cocaine and marijuana; solicitation and conspiracy to
    kidnap; attempted murder; conspiracy to use a firearm in a
    violent crime; conspiracy to kill and kidnap in a foreign
    country; interstate and foreign travel in aid of racketeering;
    money laundering; and other related crimes.
    To date, Project Reckoning has resulted in the arrest
    of 507 individuals and the seizure of approximately $60.1 million
    in U.S. currency, 16,711 kilograms of cocaine, 1,039 pounds of
    methamphetamine, 19 pounds of heroin, 51,258 pounds of marijuana,
    176 vehicles and 167 weapons. Project Reckoning, a 15-month
    investigation, combined into one centrally coordinated effort
    several multi-district enforcement operations that all involved
    individuals with close ties to the Gulf Cartel. Operation Dos
    Equis, Operation Vertigo, Operation Stinger and Operation The
    Family as well as numerous local operations combined to form
    Project Reckoning.
    Operation Xcellerator.
    To date, Operation Xcellerator has led to the arrest of 755 individuals and the seizure of approximately $59.1 million in U.S. currency, more than 12,000 kilograms of cocaine, more than 16,000 pounds of marijuana, more than 1,200 pounds of methamphetamine, more than 8 kilograms of heroin, approximately 1.3 million pills of Ecstasy, more than $6.5 million in other assets, 149 vehicles, 3 aircraft, 3 maritime vessels and 169 weapons.
    Operation Imperial Emperor.
    The 20-month investigation, which was led by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), has thus far resulted in the seizure of approximately $45.2 million in U.S. currency, 27,229 pounds of marijuana, 9,512 pounds of cocaine, 705 pounds of methamphetamine, 227 pounds of pure methamphetamine or “ice,” and 11 pounds of heroin. The investigation has also netted $6.1 million in property and assets, as well as roughly 100 weapons and 94 vehicles.
    Now of course, had you actually read the link you posted, and investigated the links within the article a bit futher, you would have eventually found all this information...information that completely nails the coffin shut on your theory that "because no U.S. gun dealers were raided there is no proof that U.S. guns are going to Mexico." You now have the actual ATF testimony to the Senate supported by links to four major operation which produced hundreds of individual cases linked to thousands of firearms that were traced by the ATF.
    Nice, you go from:



    to now admitting it's abuse.
    Well what exactly do you think I mean when I say they abused the figure? I was referring to them using it to over emphasize the extent of the issue. Unlike you, I'm not closing myself off to possibilities (regarding the gun grab reference I made), however the degree of probability has yet to be established. Anything is possible.

    To be continued...
    Last edited by Lerxst; 04-18-09 at 07:44 PM.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    You keep on doubting. His track record on gun rights is out there for all to see.

    In 2006, he voted with an 84 to 16 majority (and against Clinton) to prohibit confiscation of firearms during an emergency, but that is his only pro-gun vote in Springfield or Washington. The National Rifle Association grades his voting record (and Clinton's) an "F."

    Robert D. Novak - Obama's Second-Amendment Dance - washingtonpost.com

    'Nobody Knows Obama's Record on Guns Better Than I Do,' Says Illinois State Rifle... | Reuters

    Barack Obama on Gun Control
    I never said he was a gun rights advocate. I said I doubt his citation of that figure was a bold plot to snatch guns from Americans. He said it one time in one speech. That doesn't really rise to the standard of evidence.

    Irrelevant are the number of times they made the comment. The comment itself is a lie.
    It's absolutely relevant when you are making a case that he is using the statement as a tool to build support for a gun grab. The comment is inaccurate, and if he in fact used it in a deliberately misleading way, then it was a lie. If he used it out of context, such as his proclamation of the 57 states, he was mistaken. I think it falls somewhere in between the two. Not quite a nefarious plot, not quite an innocent misstatement. Your "spin" reference might in fact be a good word to describe what happened.

    Nice. A mischaracterization turned into abuse and has now made it's way to taking advantage of the situation.
    What do you think a mischaracterization is? An accident? Would it not be abuse if it was spun? Would not spinning this statistic in order to use it to your advantage be taking advantage of the situation?

    You are building your case on some belief that those terms are mutually exclusive. You have been shown the error of your ways yet once more.

    No, the onus is not on me. Me calling into question a lack of raids does not mean I'm insinuating that treacery is afoot. It's a legitimate question.
    Of course it is. When you call Obama a liar you need to prove it. He made a statement out of context, for reasons that we all have our own opinions about. However your claim that a lack of information on U.S. gun dealer raids somehow proves the statement if false is where this all started. And you claim is hollow, illogical, and plain dumb. The ATF made the statement Obama referenced, that statement has been posted here and backed up with research into the cases that helped contribute to the findings. So you now have been provided with the basis for the actual ATF statement and the operations contributing to the findings in that statement have been referenced. It's very safe to say that the ATF was not lying when they said guns originating from U.S. arms dealers have made their way to Mexico. And it's safe to say your failed argument about a lack of U.S. gun dealer raids equating to an Obama or ATF lie is now officially dead.


    I laugh in your face at your assertion here. The only move lacking smarts is the above quote from you.
    You shouldn't be laughing at anything. You should be embarrassed, and more importantly, you should be reading a book or doing some research. If you were to actually do that, you might not humiliate yourself so frequently.

    The point here, is you don't have one. You've tried repeatedly to spin the fact that Obama blatantly lied about the numbers.
    And now you are trying to divert. I can understand why. You made a stupid argument in order to criticize Obama. When that failed you reverted to the "90%" argument. Fine. That doesn't change the fact that you stepped on your dick once again and got called on it.

    You then morph it from a mischaracterization, to an abuse, to deliberately taking advantage of a situation.
    See, here you go again. Duck, dodge, duck....

    You then "band camp" with anecdotal drivel, make ridiculous assertions and copy/paste the facts in regard to the 90% from my link.
    Which logically supported my debunking of your sputtering argument.
    When I say you're the Barney Frank of DP, it means just that, long winded, filled with spin, and containing nothing of substance.
    And we all know how the rest of the forum feels about you now don't we.

    In the end you have no choice to back off of your original claim and settle on "Obama lied about the 90%." Which is fine, you have fun with that. Maybe he did deliberately lie about it, maybe he misstated. Who knows? Wait...you know don't you? Just like you knew the facts when you said this...
    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt
    I then pointed out the real rhetoric, which is the Obama administration claiming that these guns can be traced back to the United States.

    Yet, we've seen no proof of it.
    You might wish to retract that.

    The point here is that Obama has now backed off the AWB. And that is a good thing.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 04-18-09 at 07:50 PM.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Instead of Obama renewing a unconstitutional ban I see Obama trying to find another back door to use for stripping away 2nd amendment rights such as back ground checks,closing "gun show loop hole", gun limits, waiting periods, permits, registrations and any other unconstitutional thing. The majority of states do not require people to do these things,if you don't believe then look up the brady website.
    First of all, thanks for your opinion. You get back to us when this actually happens. Secondly, I am well aware of the issues surrounding gun permit requirements, waiting periods, and registrations. Thank you but I don't need the link.
    The most logical solution as GottaHurt suggested is to prevent US arms from making into Mexico is to adequately secure the border and require everyone to go through check points on the border. Instead of using the most logical solution Obama and all the other clowns in office who pretend to give a **** about what happens in Mexico will use this as an opportunity to chip away our second amendment rights through incrementation. I could care less about Mexico's crime problem. Crime in another country is not excuse to effect our rights in the US.
    I'm a strong proponent of a secure U.S. border with Mexico and controlled immigration.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I'll not argue this point, you believe it to be a deliberate lie, I'm not ready to make that leap.
    You can't argue the point, because the lie is blatant. You can only attempt to spin it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Bull****. Your asserting that since you've not heard of raids being conducted on U.S. gun dealers that Obama is lying. You're being dishonest again.
    No, you're flat out wrong. I've shown time and time again that Obama's blatant lie was about the 90% number he stated, 3 weeks after Clinton got hammered on it.

    The only dishonesty here, is your obvious attempt to make false accusations. You have priors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    No, but you did say that if in fact guns could be traced back to U.S. gun dealers there would have been ATF raids on the dealers.
    No, you said that.

    I posted this:

    They keep talking about tracing all these weapons back to the United States, yet they give no specifics. If they've been traced back here, how come DOJ/ATF/FBI aren't conducting raids to shut down the arms dealers?
    See how that is presented, in the form of a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    In fact, a good portion of your argument is based around this logic. So I ask, if they weren't selling to the cartels or some agent of the cartels, why would you forward the notion that we should be raiding the gun dealers? I'll tell you why, you are dishonest and you further...you really don't understand what you are talking about.
    Ahhh, the typical Lerxst "I'm right your wrong because I said so" argument. Yep, the Lerxst ship is sinking fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Yeah, I'd avoid actually trying to rebut that if I were you too. But you really have no way to debunk what I've said because it is a scenario that has played out thousands of times at gun shows all over the country. And it is just one example of why your house of cards is so easy to blow down.
    Then please give a link to all these scenario's being played out. Otherwise it's just more Lerxst Band Camp Stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Yet your reputation here is so well established by members on all sides of the political spectrum. Yeah, the problem here is me alright. You've not substantiated your case with anything other than your staccato posting of opinion and bad logic interspersed with an occasional reference to some actual truth.
    Yep, you're clinging to the crows nest now. You keep telling yourself this, as you do in every desperate post of yours, and maybe one of these days you'll believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    He backed away from it. That is what is most important here.
    No, he lied about the 90%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You have assumed a very large amount of information and been called on it. And you haven't actually been critical of the ATF or any other agency in this thread. You've not proven anything other than Obama mischaracterized the 90% statistic in his speech. I can and have run circles around you in numerous debates regarding the bringing of facts. Thus far, as I have pointed out, the main foundation of your post that started this was based completely on your ignorant assumptions and lack of knowledge regarding how guns are traced in criminal investigations.
    I've assumed nothing, you're the one throwing around the assumptions and false accusations. My position from the beginning has been Obama lying about the 90% and raising the question as to why the DOJ/ATF/FBI haven't conducted raids on gun shops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Translation: "I still really can't make my case so I'll make a runty little anti-Obama remark." Keep dancing.
    No, I was pointing out your feeble attempt to spin the fact that Obama lied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    No, you have not. Not in any way, and I've shown why. What you are doing now is simply denying the obvious. You're logic is flawed and you wiggling like a fish on the floor of the boat. A spot you frequently find yourself in whether it be at my hand or any other number of posters who get on here and expose your inadequacies.
    Oh my, someone is all riled up and frothing at the mouth. You've not argued a single point in this post, you instead have resorted to nuh uh's, I'm right your wrong and silly little snipes aimed at me to make yourself feel better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Stay tuned...the real hammer is about to drop.
    Yep, unfortunately for you, right on your head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You're actually stating that because you personally were presented with all the case files that the ATF is lying.
    Drinking again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    That Obama is lying.
    Yep, just read the link I provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Wait, I forget that when learning to make a fried corn on the cob they don't teach you how to actually do research for yourself, only make assumptions that are tempered by your own political predispositions and and layered with flawed logic. Here let me help you out and in the process shut your bloviating.
    Yes, your position on this issue is so stellar that this is the type of response you're trying to solidify your argument on

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Now of course, had you actually read the link you posted, and investigated the links within the article a bit futher, you would have eventually found all this information...information that completely nails the coffin shut on your theory that "because no U.S. gun dealers were raided there is no proof that U.S. guns are going to Mexico." You now have the actual ATF testimony to the Senate supported by links to four major operation which produced hundreds of individual cases linked to thousands of firearms that were traced by the ATF.
    That hammer is really kicking your ass here. You're just making up your own arguments now. I've never claimed anything even remotely close to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Well what exactly do you think I mean when I say they abused the figure? I was referring to them using it to over emphasize the extent of the issue. Unlike you, I'm not closing myself off to possibilities (regarding the gun grab reference I made), however the degree of probability has yet to be established. Anything is possible.
    Again, you make up your own arguments as you go. I've not closed myself off to anything.

    Gun grab? You're just running off on wild tangents now. Get a grip on yourself.
    Never once have I stated, implied or suggested anything of the sort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    It's absolutely relevant when you are making a case that he is using the statement as a tool to build support for a gun grab.
    You're hammered alright, you might switch to screwdrivers. Again, I've never made any such claims to any type of gun grab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    When you call Obama a liar you need to prove it. He made a statement out of context.
    I have proven that he lied, and no he didn't make it out of context. You're desperately trying every angle to spin this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    And it's safe to say your failed argument about a lack of U.S. gun dealer raids equating to an Obama or ATF lie is now officially dead.
    Yes, your strawman is dead. I've never made any such argument. You did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    And now you are trying to divert. I can understand why. You made a stupid argument in order to criticize Obama. When that failed you reverted to the "90%" argument. Fine. That doesn't change the fact that you stepped on your dick once again and got called on it.
    No diversion here. I made no stupid argument. I proved Obama lied about the 90% and posed a question in regard to gun shops.

    Your alcohol induced rantings are quite amusing though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Which logically supported my debunking of your sputtering argument.
    Yes your band camp stories are always the ace up your sleeve. Tell us about you and the apple pie in the kitchen again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    And we all know how the rest of the forum feels about you now don't we.
    You keep clicking your heels together and telling yourself that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    In the end you have no choice to back off of your original claim and settle on "Obama lied about the 90%." Which is fine, you have fun with that. Maybe he did deliberately lie about it, maybe he misstated.
    No need to back off on anything. I've proved in this thread, and in others, that the 90% is a lie.

    I see that the seeds of doubt have taken root in your head. You know, maybe he did...
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

  9. #29
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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Typical GottaHurt brainsludge runoff. We will do this all night long, bottom line is your posts are there for all to see, and your insinuation was obvious. You failed to substantiate your insinuation, you stumbled and bumbled trying to divert and dodge, and it didn't work.

    You got caught son. Take your act back to Carl's Jr. Debate isn't your forte.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 04-19-09 at 12:11 AM.
    *insert profound statement here*

  10. #30
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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    The obvious here, is your beligerant ranting, and incessant personal attacks.

    I made a simple statement, and substantiated my statement with a source that brought to light how the numbers were derived.

    I then posed a legitimate question, followed by a statement pointing out the lack of details being provided.

    The Obama administration has been short on details when talking about it's policies and programs. To question the policies and programs isn't being anti-Obama, it's an effort to glean pertinent information as to how they are going to impact our country.

    In your eagerness to prove me wrong, you made several false assumptions, multiple false assertions, and let your imagination take a wide liberty with my position on the issues. Pretty much your MO in most of your posts.

    In typical Lerxst fashion, you came up short and melted down again. You keep trying though, your antics are quite amusing, as is your parting shot here.

    There are no Carl's Jr in Florida, obviously research isn't your forte.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

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