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Thread: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    Obama is a joke. He grandstands an issue he can't win.

    The real meat & potato's of the article is right here:

    "In order for Mexico to grow and prosper, Mexico needs the United States' investments, and the United States of America needs the strength of the Mexican labor force," Calderon said.

    Translation:

    We give Mexico more money to piss away, and we get more illegal immigrants to work for tax free slave wages, leech off our entitlement programs, and live without fear of being deported.

    We can police the world, but we can't police our own backyard.
    Unless I'm mistaken, Calderon is referring to actual investment by private industry in Mexican corporations and manufacturing. In that sense, what he's saying is completely accurate and entirely uncontroversial.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken, Calderon is referring to actual investment by private industry in Mexican corporations and manufacturing. In that sense, what he's saying is completely accurate and entirely uncontroversial.
    Again, like all the other Obama initiatives, big on words, void of details.

    They keep talking about tracing all these weapons back to the United States, yet they give no specifics. If they've been traced back here, how come DOJ/ATF/FBI aren't conducting raids to shut down the arms dealers?

    Again, suspiciously void of details. Where is the proof, all those weapons are originating from here?

    The facts are clear, drugs & illegal immigrants are coming in.

    The solution is to shut down the border with troops & fence. Force everyone through the checkpoints.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    The solution is to shut down the border with troops & fence. Force everyone through the checkpoints.
    No no no!
    The solution is to make it harder for law-abiding Americans to get guns!!

    < looking at you and not understanding why you dont get it >

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    Again, like all the other Obama initiatives, big on words, void of details.

    They keep talking about tracing all these weapons back to the United States, yet they give no specifics. If they've been traced back here, how come DOJ/ATF/FBI aren't conducting raids to shut down the arms dealers?

    Again, suspiciously void of details. Where is the proof, all those weapons are originating from here?

    The facts are clear, drugs & illegal immigrants are coming in.

    The solution is to shut down the border with troops & fence. Force everyone through the checkpoints.
    What does any of this have to do with what we were just talking about? Did you just randomly select some anti-immigration rhetoric and post it without regard for the topic?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    What does any of this have to do with what we were just talking about? Did you just randomly select some anti-immigration rhetoric and post it without regard for the topic?
    No, I actually read the article linked in the OP:

    President Obama, after meeting Thursday with Mexico's president, signaled he is backing away from his pledge to renew the U.S. ban on assault weapons but still wishes to stop the cross-border flow of guns that wind up in the arsenals of drug cartels.

    I then pointed out the real rhetoric, which is the Obama administration claiming that these guns can be traced back to the United States.

    Yet, we've seen no proof of it.

    "We are absolutely committed to working in partnership with Mexico to make sure we are dealing with this scourge on both sides of the border," Obama said at a news conference with Calderon outlining their strategy.

    You know, the drug dealers and immigrants who are crossing into our country illegally.

    You can cling to his campaign speech style of rhetoric if you choose. I like to investigate his claims a little more closely. What I've found, as I've previously stated, is that he's long on words, short on substance.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No no no!
    The solution is to make it harder for law-abiding Americans to get guns!!

    < looking at you and not understanding why you dont get it >
    I'm seeing a trend here with He-Man-Obama-Haters-Club. In the face of evidence that contradicts you, just make **** up. A bit risky, but that's your style. Devil may care, freeballin in your Wranglers and Ann Coulter t-shirts.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    Again, like all the other Obama initiatives, big on words, void of details.

    They keep talking about tracing all these weapons back to the United States, yet they give no specifics. If they've been traced back here, how come DOJ/ATF/FBI aren't conducting raids to shut down the arms dealers?
    Tracing guns back to a country of origin does not necessarily equate to tracing them back to an arms dealer. You are making a negative proof argument here and it's weak sauce. Just because you don't hear about ATF agents raiding arms dealers doesn't mean the guns didn't come from this country. It just means you aren't hearing about raids on specific arms dealers. Maybe you should stop being critical of Obama on this matter and start being critical of the ATF if you think they are lying.

    Again, suspiciously void of details. Where is the proof, all those weapons are originating from here?
    This is awesome. Where is the proof they aren't? To use your logic..."well since we don't have anyone providing proof they aren't from here they must be from here!"

    The facts are clear, drugs & illegal immigrants are coming in.
    Finally, some real facts.

    The solution is to shut down the border with troops & fence. Force everyone through the checkpoints.
    I can agree with this.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Tracing guns back to a country of origin does not necessarily equate to tracing them back to an arms dealer.
    Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.

    Oops, your statement is shot all to hell. Perhaps you can find these shops Obama is referring too. Clinton and Obama have both stated that stopping the flow of guns from the US into Mexico is key to our border security. Yet were not seeing or hearing about any efforts to crack down on these "gun shops that line our shared border".

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Maybe you should stop being critical of Obama on this matter and start being critical of the ATF if you think they are lying.
    I'll never stop being critical of our elected officials, it's my duty as a citizen to question their actions every step of the way.

    I have been critical of DOJ/ATF/FBI, and as I've pointed out in many threads here, the claims are always suspiciously void of details.

    When Obama blatantly & knowingly lies, then I will be even more critical of him.

    Again:

    Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.

    He openly lied, on the world stage, after these numbers were proven to be false. Clinton tried foisting them on the public three weeks earlier:

    The president isn't the first to make this mistaken claim; far from it. During an interview on CBS' "Early Show" on March 26, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said: "We have to recognize and accept that the demand for drugs from the United States drives them north, and the guns that are used by the drug cartels against the police and the military, 90 percent of them come from America."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Where is the proof they aren't?
    The onus isn't on me to prove it. The onus is on the people making these bold claims.

    FactCheck.org: Counting Mexico's Guns
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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business.
    This is a well established truth.

    This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.
    This was an inaccurate statement on his part. Even Mexican officials don't put the "90%" comment out accurately. The ATF has stated that 90% of guns recovered from criminal incidents in Mexico, with serial numbers, submitted to the ATF for tracing, are shown to come the U.S.

    Oops, your statement is shot all to hell. Perhaps you can find these shops Obama is referring too. Clinton and Obama have both stated that stopping the flow of guns from the US into Mexico is key to our border security. Yet were not seeing or hearing about any efforts to crack down on these "gun shops that line our shared border".
    No, my statement is not "shot all to hell." You are being selectively reliant upon the absence of detail, which is curious as you rail on Obama over the same issue. Firearms are "traced" by their serial number primarily. That number is linked to the manufacturer, country of origin, reseller, usually the first person who purchases the weapon, and occasionally eventual purchasers. The statements that the ATF, Obama, Clinton, etc. in no way indicate that the gun shop owner is the one who sold the weapon to the drug cartel. All it actually indicates is that at some point in the life of this firearm, federal records show it passed through a specific gun reseller in the U.S. It does not say that a drug cartel gun buyer came in and bought the weapons and shipped them to Mexico.

    Have you ever been to a gun show the size of say the one in Tulsa? I have been there a few times and bought a couple of rifles and a pistol, completely untraceable purchases because there was no log created, not even a receipt for purchase. One I bought in the parking lot from a guy who had just bought it inside. Now if that gun were to be used by me in a crime, and the ATF investigated, they would find a trail that stopped long before it got to me. That in no way means that the folks who are identified and linked to this weapon had anything to do with selling a criminal a gun, and therefore no raid would be necessary.

    You don't have nearly enough information to make the anemic leap you have made in this case. Your interest is not to actually debate this topic in an honest manner, your interest is talking **** on Obama.

    I'll never stop being critical of our elected officials, it's my duty as a citizen to question their actions every step of the way.
    You're exercising very poor logic and selective criticism in this case.
    I have been critical of DOJ/ATF/FBI, and as I've pointed out in many threads here, the claims are always suspiciously void of details.
    You haven't been critical of the DOJ/ATF/FBI here. And this is the only conversation I've had with you on this specific issue. Your reliance on an assumption that people have read all of your works is in no way a safety net for your ill formulated argument in this thread. You are taking Obama's obvious mischaracterization of a frequently mischaracterized statistical figure and extrapolating beyond a reasonable conclusion in order to make a case for criticizing the man at this particular oppotunity.

    The ATF has in fact generated reports based upon the actual gun information they have received from Mexican officials during criminal investigations. Just because GottaHurt can't find them on the internet or Obama doesn't cite the case files specifically doesn't mean they don't exist.

    So your litany of assumptions here are really no foundation for the argument you are making. They are however very indicative of your true motivations.


    When Obama blatantly & knowingly lies, then I will be even more critical of him.
    Plop.

    Again:

    Obama, April 16: A demand for these drugs in the United States is what is helping to keep these cartels in business. This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.

    He openly lied, on the world stage, after these numbers were proven to be false. Clinton tried foisting them on the public three weeks earlier:

    The president isn't the first to make this mistaken claim; far from it. During an interview on CBS' "Early Show" on March 26, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said: "We have to recognize and accept that the demand for drugs from the United States drives them north, and the guns that are used by the drug cartels against the police and the military, 90 percent of them come from America."
    I'll agree that the 90% figure is being abused by the administration, but the intent behind the abuse is not yet solidified in my mind. I'll not dismiss that this could be a very deliberate line of deception in order to grab guns from Americans, however I seriously doubt that it goes that far. Let's face it, the pro-gun folks were all over this. Obama has publicly made that statement once, Clinton has publicly made that that statement once. They were addressing the U.S./Mexican relationship and the criminal elements they share, which are tied overwhelmingly in two areas: drugs and guns. Did they take advantage of the situation to drop the 90% line? Sure. Did they get it wrong and drop it out of its actual context? Sure. Was it a deliberate campaign of deception aimed at seizing guns? In my opinion, I don't think so. I think it was a dumb move aimed at over emphasizing the extent of the issue. YMMV.

    The onus isn't on me to prove it. The onus is on the people making these bold claims.
    Wrong, the onus is on you to back up your specific insinuation, that a lack of federal raids on these gun shops means treachery is afoot. In fact you relied on a lack of information in the MSM as the foundation to launch your insinuation. Not a smart move.

    And the point here is that the Mexican government seizes thousands of guns, that of the guns actually reported to the ATF by the Mexican government 90% are traced back to the U.S., that a large number of guns seized are not reported to the ATF, and the actual percentage of crime guns seized in Mexico that come from the U.S. is an elusive number.

    Even the Mexican ambassador to the U.S. dropped the figure out of its actual context.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama Backs Away From Assault Gun Ban in Push to Stop Flow to Mexico

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post

    This was an inaccurate statement on his part.
    No, it's a blatant lie. The information was out there as early as March 17th.
    Because Obama and his speech writers chose to ignore the facts doesn't change the fact, that he lied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    No, my statement is not "shot all to hell." You are being selectively reliant upon the absence of detail, which is curious as you rail on Obama over the same issue. Firearms are "traced" by their serial number primarily. That number is linked to the manufacturer, country of origin, reseller, usually the first person who purchases the weapon, and occasionally eventual purchasers. The statements that the ATF, Obama, Clinton, etc. in no way indicate that the gun shop owner is the one who sold the weapon to the drug cartel. All it actually indicates is that at some point in the life of this firearm, federal records show it passed through a specific gun reseller in the U.S.
    Hook line & sinker. Suspiciously void of detail is the phrase I've used time and time again as the Obama administration misleads the public, by leaving out the details.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    It does not say that a drug cartel gun buyer came in and bought the weapons and shipped them to Mexico.
    I've never claimed this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Have you ever been to a gun show the size of say the one in Tulsa? I have been there a few times and bought a couple of rifles and a pistol, completely untraceable purchases because there was no log created, not even a receipt for purchase. One I bought in the parking lot from a guy who had just bought it inside. Now if that gun were to be used by me in a crime, and the ATF investigated, they would find a trail that stopped long before it got to me. That in no way means that the folks who are identified and linked to this weapon had anything to do with selling a criminal a gun, and therefore no raid would be necessary.
    One time, at band camp....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You don't have nearly enough information to make the anemic leap you have made in this case. Your interest is not to actually debate this topic in an honest manner, your interest is talking **** on Obama.
    No anemic leaps here, only laughter as you use the phrase "honest debate."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You're exercising very poor logic and selective criticism in this case.
    My criticism of Obama is well founded in this case. He's been caught in a blatant lie, then grandstanded his position on AWB. He can't win the AWB fight, his own party won't support it, so he spun it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You haven't been critical of the DOJ/ATF/FBI here. And this is the only conversation I've had with you on this specific issue. Your reliance on an assumption that people have read all of your works is in no way a safety net for your ill formulated argument in this thread.
    I've assumed nothing, and have been critical of DOJ/ATF/FBI. Your lackadaisical approach to searching out the facts is your problem, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    You are taking Obama's obvious mischaracterization of a frequently mischaracterized statistical figure and extrapolating beyond a reasonable conclusion in order to make a case for criticizing the man at this particular oppotunity.
    Translation:

    Obama blatantly lied in the same fashion Hillary lied about coming under sniper fire.

    Your hilarious spin definitely puts you in the running for the Junior Community Organizer Lapel Pin you so desperately seek from Obama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    The ATF has in fact generated reports based upon the actual gun information they have received from Mexican officials during criminal investigations. Just because GottaHurt can't find them on the internet or Obama doesn't cite the case files specifically doesn't mean they don't exist.So your litany of assumptions here are really no foundation for the argument you are making. They are however very indicative of your true motivations.
    I've already supported my arguments with your link, and my link.

    Just like Obama & Crew, you fail to produce any sources to this particular point in the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I'll agree that the 90% figure is being abused by the administration, but the intent behind the abuse is not yet solidified in my mind.
    Nice, you go from:

    Obama's obvious mischaracterization of a frequently mischaracterized statistical figure
    to now admitting it's abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I'll not dismiss that this could be a very deliberate line of deception in order to grab guns from Americans, however I seriously doubt that it goes that far.
    You keep on doubting. His track record on gun rights is out there for all to see.

    In 2006, he voted with an 84 to 16 majority (and against Clinton) to prohibit confiscation of firearms during an emergency, but that is his only pro-gun vote in Springfield or Washington. The National Rifle Association grades his voting record (and Clinton's) an "F."

    Robert D. Novak - Obama's Second-Amendment Dance - washingtonpost.com

    'Nobody Knows Obama's Record on Guns Better Than I Do,' Says Illinois State Rifle... | Reuters

    Barack Obama on Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Obama has publicly made that statement once, Clinton has publicly made that that statement once. They were addressing the U.S./Mexican relationship and the criminal elements they share, which are tied overwhelmingly in two areas: drugs and guns.
    Irrelevant are the number of times they made the comment. The comment itself is a lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Did they take advantage of the situation to drop the 90% line? Sure. Did they get it wrong and drop it out of its actual context? Sure.
    Nice. A mischaracterization turned into abuse and has now made it's way to taking advantage of the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Wrong, the onus is on you to back up your specific insinuation, that a lack of federal raids on these gun shops means treachery is afoot.
    No, the onus is not on me. Me calling into question a lack of raids does not mean I'm insinuating that treacery is afoot. It's a legitimate question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    In fact you relied on a lack of information in the MSM as the foundation to launch your insinuation.Not a smart move.
    I laugh in your face at your assertion here. The only move lacking smarts is the above quote from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    And the point here is that the Mexican government seizes thousands of guns, that of the guns actually reported to the ATF by the Mexican government 90% are traced back to the U.S., that a large number of guns seized are not reported to the ATF, and the actual percentage of crime guns seized in Mexico that come from the U.S. is an elusive number.

    Even the Mexican ambassador to the U.S. dropped the figure out of its actual context.
    The point here, is you don't have one. You've tried repeatedly to spin the fact that Obama blatantly lied about the numbers.

    You then morph it from a mischaracterization, to an abuse, to deliberately taking advantage of a situation.

    You then "band camp" with anecdotal drivel, make ridiculous assertions and copy/paste the facts in regard to the 90% from my link.

    When I say you're the Barney Frank of DP, it means just that, long winded, filled with spin, and containing nothing of substance.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

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