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Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

Oh here's a much better video, uncut.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9iaPSdF1fY"]YouTube - Obama Speaking To CIA Defends Release Of Torture Memos[/ame]

Interesting. He's a good talker.

My only dispute with what he said is if we from here on out have decided we will not waterboard ok. But by saying we should not be ashamed to admit our mistakes he is implying that we acted in a wrong manner. He doesn't go so far as to claim that we acted in an illegal manner, but still implies wrongdoing on the parts of our military. I wish he had not done that. I think it's unfair. I'm also curious about what exactly Obama feels they should be able to do in the process of an interrogation or if he feels interrogation is off the table. We train our own men and women on how to not give up information, do we not? Clearly folks don't just tell you stuff 'cause you ask sweetly. What forms of interrogation are ok if waterboarding, sleep deprivation, etc are not? If things that cause no bodily harm in the long term are off the table than how can anything be on the table?

Also, I think much of this type of talk belongs somewhat behind closed doors. I mean it seems rather stupid for folks fighting against us to have a checklist of what our men and women are not allowed to do them. How does that not embolden them?

For folks who are against waterboarding what means of gathering information from captured peoples would you support?
 
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dirtpoorchris said:
Obama open to prosecution, probe of interrogations
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Did he really say we "lost our moral bearing"??? I want to see that video. That's an awful thing to say. If you are now going to hold a higher standard that's one thing but it just seems sort of crappy to get up on a high horse and condemn the acts of your own military when what they did was not illegal. Right? Especially when you get all hysterical with your language and start condemning them about their "mistakes" "wrongdoings" and treatment of peoples who if the tables were turned would behead our folks without hesitation.

Am I missing something? Was waterboarding illegal?
 
talloulou said:
Oh here's a much better video, uncut.

YouTube - Obama Speaking To CIA Defends Release Of Torture Memos

Interesting. He's a good talker.

My only dispute with what he said is if we from here on out have decided we will not waterboard ok. But by saying we should not be ashamed to admit our mistakes he is implying that we acted in a wrong manner. He doesn't go so far as to claim that we acted in an illegal manner, but still implies wrongdoing on the parts of our military. I wish he had not done that. I think it's unfair. I'm also curious about what exactly Obama feels they should be able to do in the process of an interrogation or if he feels interrogation is off the table. We train our own men and women on how to not give up information, do we not? Clearly folks don't just tell you stuff 'cause you ask sweetly. What forms of interrogation are ok if waterboarding, sleep deprivation, etc are not? If things that cause no bodily harm in the long term are off the table than how can anything be on the table?

Also, I think much of this type of talk belongs somewhat behind closed doors. I mean it seems rather stupid for folks fighting against us to have a checklist of what our men and women are not allowed to do them. How does that not embolden them?

For folks who are against waterboarding what means of gathering information from captured peoples would you support?
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Obama was elected to apologize for all the evil the United States, the source of all evil in the world, has done.

Didn't you know that?
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Obama was elected to apologize for all the evil the United States, the source of all evil in the world, has done.

Didn't you know that?
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He does seem to rather have a holier than thou "Thank God I'm here to set everything straight," mentality that is really getting on my nerves. He is not handling this situation well at all IMO. If you want to make waterboarding illegal fine. I'd like to know what's going to replace it. But the talk is just so hysterical. It's as if we were cutting folks fingers off, pulling off their nails, setting them on fire when really we're talking keeping them awake and pouring water over their heads - causing no actual physical damage. He's getting a little over the top with his moral parading.
 
talloulou said:
Oh here's a much better video, uncut.

YouTube - Obama Speaking To CIA Defends Release Of Torture Memos

Interesting. He's a good talker.

My only dispute with what he said is if we from here on out have decided we will not waterboard ok. But by saying we should not be ashamed to admit our mistakes he is implying that we acted in a wrong manner. He doesn't go so far as to claim that we acted in an illegal manner, but still implies wrongdoing on the parts of our military. I wish he had not done that. I think it's unfair. I'm also curious about what exactly Obama feels they should be able to do in the process of an interrogation or if he feels interrogation is off the table. We train our own men and women on how to not give up information, do we not? Clearly folks don't just tell you stuff 'cause you ask sweetly. What forms of interrogation are ok if waterboarding, sleep deprivation, etc are not? If things that cause no bodily harm in the long term are off the table than how can anything be on the table?

Also, I think much of this type of talk belongs somewhat behind closed doors. I mean it seems rather stupid for folks fighting against us to have a checklist of what our men and women are not allowed to do them. How does that not embolden them?

For folks who are against waterboarding what means of gathering information from captured peoples would you support?
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We counter torture train out troops in case BAD people get a hold of them.... Interrogation is asking someone questions. Not asking them questions with fear of their life being mixed in. So what about all the torture that went on with people that where simply resistant and had no information to give?

The trouble is people merging stuff with newspeak. Water boarding and sleep deprivation is not interrogation.... its torture.

As for how to interrogate? You gotta have someone over their head to bargain with... like some intel on them. You got to catch someone red handed and then turn their world to ****. Have some things you know are true about them and ask them smart things to get them to slip up.

Not just scoop up tons of people and try the ones that give you good enough "confessions" because they where tired of being water boarded over and over.
 
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Does waterboarding fit any of these definitions?

tor⋅ture noun, verb, -tured, -tur⋅ing.
–noun
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
–verb (used with object)
6. to subject to torture.
7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
8. to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips!
9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.
10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).
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in⋅ter⋅ro⋅gate verb, -gat⋅ed, -gat⋅ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to ask questions of (a person), sometimes to seek answers or information that the person questioned considers personal or secret.
2. to examine by questions; question formally: The police captain interrogated the suspect.
–verb (used without object)
3. to ask questions, esp. formally or officially: the right to interrogate.
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Guess it all depends if you hold your breath or not and for how long. ;)
 
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How much transparency do we expect with "war" talk? Personally I think right now there's way too much. I'm curious what others think on that. I think civilians don't have the stomach for war and don't remember that when talking about it. In some ways that's a good thing and in other ways - when it comes to condemning those serving our country - it has horrible implications.

People captured in a time of war are NOT going to talk if you just ask them questions. They're just not. You have to realize that they have already decided that what they're fighting against is worth dying for. Some folks would rather be dead then be uncomfortable which is why some of this stuff leads to the gaining of information in the first place. Right???

I do think there's barbaric things and I would most definitely not support our government chopping off fingers and what not.

But it appears that we are now going to go down the path of our military not being able to do anything to captured folks at all other than take good solid care of them. When you're up against people who will put your people on tv and chop their heads off I'm not sure that's solid policy.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
We counter torture train out troops in case BAD people get a hold of them.... Interrogation is asking someone questions. Not asking them questions with fear of their life being mixed in. So what about all the torture that went on with people that where simply resistant and had no information to give?
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That's a weird definition of "interrogation". A real definition is asking questions in a manner the produces results.

Lerxst said:
The trouble is people merging stuff with newspeak. Water boarding and sleep deprivation is not interrogation.... its torture.
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Nah, you're just forgetting the questions that go with it. You're thinking that waterboarding is like when the Empire induced pain into Han Solo in The Empire Strikes Back... "They're not asking anything, they're just causing pain".

That's torture.

The word "interrogation" implies agressiveness and determination, a little waterboarding is just a harmless form of enhancement, is all. It's not like we're talking about people here, no...we're discussing terrorists, right?
 
I'm going to come out and say that its good these practices have stopped and hopefully this will be followed by the introduction of a new international convention that outlaws the these techniques. Currently, the Convention Against Torture reads:

For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
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Wording a new convention would be very difficult, but I have confidence that we are resourceful enough to figure it out. So the question becomes "what are we going to do now?" That's the question that has no easy answer.
 
I'm glad Cheney has called out this crap.

Time to see what worked instead of listening to know nothings telling people what they think failed based on nothing but their own idealistic flippant opinion.


Release the documents that show the success OBAMA or shut your pie hole.
 
talloulou said:
For folks who are against waterboarding what means of gathering information from captured peoples would you support?
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Well I am not against waterboarding but I have an idea. Lock these guys up in a room with a 2 year old. When the two year old wants some juice, the terrorist will be required to give the child the juice. But then the two year old will naturally not want the juice in that particular cup. So the terrorist will have to figure out which juice cup it is the two year old wants. When he gets to the last cup and the two year old doesn't want that cup either, he will become frustrated and not offer the child any juice. But the child will be persistent that he/she wants juice, just not in any of the juice cups that they have there. After about 1 week, the terrorist will gladly give up any information needed, in order to escape the clutches of a two year old with an illogical desire for a specific juice cup that does not exist.
 
My attitude is a very simple one: We are Americans, not Nazis! Torture is NEVER justifiable & "I was just following orders" has not been an acceptable defense since Nuremberg.....Period!
Anyone who authorized torture or carried it out is a monster & needs to be punished.
What is torture?
I think it was Justice Brandeis who was once asked a similar question about pornography. His response was something like this:
"I cant give you a good legal definition of it but...............I know it when i see it!"
 
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Devil505 said:
My attitude is a very simple one: We are Americans, not Nazis! Torture is NEVER justifiable & "I was just following orders" has not been an acceptable defense since Nuremberg.....Period!
Anyone who authorized torture or carried it out is a monster & needs to be punished.
What is torture?
I think it was Justice Brandeis who was once asked a similar question about pornography. His response was something like this:
"I cant give you a good legal definition of it but...............I know it when i see it!"
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You're seriously going to compare sleep deprivation and waterboarding to Nazis!!!!! :roll: How am I supposed to take that seriously?
 
talloulou said:
You're seriously going to compare sleep deprivation and waterboarding to Nazis!!!!! :roll:
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There was more to it than that & some prisoners were actually killed outright. Yes.....It was NAZI type torture alright & Obama did the right thing by reversing himself today. Torturers are no better than Nazis & need to meet with the same ultimate penalty...Especially the "Deciders" that authorized it!
 
Here's what I find funny. I am anti-death penalty and have a relatively low threshold for what I think it's ok for one human to do to another. When our government blows up a terrorist's house and kills the terrorist but also his little kids I get pissed. I don't think it's ok to kill everyone who is in a house/building in order to get your single target. I think we're better than that. Yet, most don't say boo about it.

But this water crapola makes everyone nuts. Everyone has an opinion on it. And the hysteria surrounding it is just soooo without merit when you put it in perspective. Waterboarding is probably one of the least horrifying aspects of war I can think of off the top of my head for Christ's sake.
 
Devil505 said:
There was more to it than that & some prisoners were actually killed outright. Yes.....It was NAZI type torture alright & Obama did the right thing by reversing himself today. Torturers are no better than Nazis & need to meet with the same ultimate penalty...Especially the "Deciders" that authorized it!
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We outright killed prisoners with waterboarding?
 
Devil505 said:
Torture is NEVER justifiable
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Sure it is.

If it produces actionable intelligence that thwarts terrorist attacks and saves American lives, it's justified.

This is the CIA, not the Boy Scouts.
 
talloulou said:
Here's what I find funny. I am anti-death penalty and have a relatively low threshold for what I think it's ok for one human to do to another. When our government blows up a terrorist's house and kills the terrorist but also his little kids I get pissed. I don't think it's ok to kill everyone who is in a house/building in order to get your single target. I think we're better than that. Yet, most don't say boo about it.

But this water crapola makes everyone nuts. Everyone has an opinion on it. And the hysteria surrounding it is just soooo without merit when you put it in perspective. Waterboarding is probably one of the least horrifying aspects of war I can think of off the top of my head for Christ's sake.
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We are all speaking from ignorance of the true facts, at this point, so let's let the truth come out b4 we rush to protect some suspected monsters among us.
 
Devil505 said:
We are all speaking from ignorance of the true facts, at this point, so let's let the truth come out b4 we rush to protect some suspected monsters among us.
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Monsters! Seriously????????? Most of the complaints from Guantanamo involved abuse of their religion, their religious books, cold cells, and crap food.

Gimme a god damn break.

Most of them were not waterboarded.

This is exactly what pisses me off about Obama going on TV and talking crap about our mistakes and wrongdoing. Now we have goofs talking about monsters among us.
 
celticlord said:
Sure it is.

If it produces actionable intelligence that thwarts terrorist attacks and saves American lives, it's justified.

This is the CIA, not the Boy Scouts.
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We simply disagree. I was a DEA Agent & interrogated thousands of prisoners for information & never once felt the need to torture. A smart interrogater knows that torture will get the prisoner to tell you ANYTHING he thinks you want to hear. Torture is ineffective for getting reliable info & it is cowardly, un-American, immoral, illegal & can't be justified by simply calling it something besides torture. Call it "Fred"........It's still torture!.....& if you "Fred" someone....You are indeed a monster!
 
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Devil505 said:
We simply disagree. I was a DEA Agent & interrogated thousands of prisoners for information & never once felt the need to torture. A smart interrogater knows that torture will get the prisoner to tell you ANYTHING he thinks you want to hear. Torture is ineffective for getting reliable info & it is cowardly, un-American, immoral, illegal & can't be justified by simply calling it something besides torture. Call it "Fred"........It's still torture!
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You are so full of crap. Just so you know I don't believe you AT ALL. An interrogator would know how to spell interrogator. :roll: Especially a smart one. :rofl
 
talloulou said:
You are so full of crap. Just so you know I don't believe you AT ALL. An interrogator would know how to spell interrogator. :roll: Especially a smart one. :rofl
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Personal attack is the last line of defense when you're unable to defend your position. Have a nice life.:2wave:
 
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Devil505 said:
Personal attack is the last line of defense when your unable to defend your position. Have a nice life.:2wave:
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The weakest form of debate is to lie and attempt to pass yourself off as an expert. Especially when you can't even spell interrogator yet claim to have had a job interrogating thousands. Did you seriously not expect to be called out on that?

bwahahahahaha

:2wave:
 
talloulou said:
Here's what I find funny. I am anti-death penalty and have a relatively low threshold for what I think it's ok for one human to do to another. When our government blows up a terrorist's house and kills the terrorist but also his little kids I get pissed. I don't think it's ok to kill everyone who is in a house/building in order to get your single target. I think we're better than that. Yet, most don't say boo about it.

But this water crapola makes everyone nuts. Everyone has an opinion on it. And the hysteria surrounding it is just soooo without merit when you put it in perspective. Waterboarding is probably one of the least horrifying aspects of war I can think of off the top of my head for Christ's sake.
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I say the easy answer, is if we are willing to use it to train our own troops/personell, we should be allowed to use it on terror suspects. Are we going to chop off body parts of our own personell? No. Are we going to cut off their heads? No. Are we going to sleep deprive them, food deprive them, water board, and other little nasty, but in the long run, unharmful, tactics to try and break a person? You bet. If its good enough for us, its good enough for them I say.
 
Devil505 said:
I was a DEA Agent & interrogated thousands of prisoners for information & never once felt the need to torture.
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Big whup. DEA arrests people and gathers evidence for use in prosecutions. The CIA isn't gathering evidence, but actionable intelligence, and gathering it from folks whose motives are not dollar denominated. Cop rules do not apply.

The CIA should be empowered to get whatever information they can from them by whatever means produce results.
 
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