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Thread: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

  1. #51
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    They are not tortured by Americans though or the American gov't. One must not stoop to the base level of an enemy, it is still a stain on one's honour.
    Again, I don't think this qualifies as torture.

    I very much doubt that. The CIA are hardly the most reliable and trustworthy of organisations. Remember the WMD?
    The CIA didn't lie to the the Bush administration about Iraq. That was the result of misinterpretation, deliberate or not, of intelligence data and an over-reaction prompted by 9/11.

    Torture is rarely required or easily useable, these 24 situations are rare if not basically non-existent in the real world. It is a stain on the honour of these individuals and on the nations involved to stoop to such levels.
    A May 30, 2005, memo says that before the harsher methods were used on top al-Qaida detainee Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he refused to answer questions about pending plots against the United States.
    "Soon, you will know," he told them, according to the memo.
    It says the interrogations later extracted details of a plot called the "second wave" to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into a building in Los Angeles.
    Obama: No charges for harsh CIA interrogation

    And by the way, the reason nobody's prosecuting the Bush administration or CIA officials isn't to protect them, it's because they know they will lose.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Again, I don't think this qualifies as torture.
    I believe it is the same thing as Chinese water torture, it certainly counts.

    The CIA didn't lie to the the Bush administration about Iraq. That was the result of misinterpretation, deliberate or not, of intelligence data and an over-reaction prompted by 9/11.
    The CIA did not lie perhaps which makes it worse, they just ****ed up.


    And by the way, the reason nobody's prosecuting the Bush administration or CIA officials isn't to protect them, it's because they know they will lose.
    I doubt that but I'm not sure prosecutions are necessary, just a change in tactics and a return to honour. That is what I want for Britain.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I believe it is the same thing as Chinese water torture, it certainly counts.
    I didn't see anything about Chinese water torture in there and the methods were designed to extract information not drive people insane which would be counter-productive.

    The CIA did not lie perhaps which makes it worse, they just ****ed up.
    A Spy Speaks Out - CBS News

    I doubt that but I'm not sure prosecutions are necessary, just a change in tactics and a return to honour. That is what I want for Britain.
    Understandable.
    Last edited by BulletWounD; 04-18-09 at 12:25 AM.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You kind of missed his point.
    He didn't make a point; he was desperately grasping for straws to defend the indefensible.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    I didn't see anything about Chinese water torture in there and the methods were designed to extract information not drive people insane which would be counter-productive.
    I may be wrong but I think waterboarding is Chinese water torture.

    I don't doubt the truth of a lot of that, but I doubt also doubt the CIA can be completely absolved of blame.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 04-18-09 at 12:33 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I may be wrong but I think waterboarding is Chinese water torture.
    Nope. "Chinese water torture" is a mythical form of torture which has never really been used.

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture]Chinese water torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    If you want to see what they really used in ancient China, see this:

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_slicing]Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I would never countenance torture because it would be stooping to the level of your enemy and would, in my opinion, sour any victory. It also sets a dangerous precedent.
    One could only wish our enemies would stoop to OUR level and only use water boarding. Unfortunately they are not so inclined and prefer REAL torture like sawing the heads off their victims. Or attaching electric wires to their genitals and electrifying them. One only need remember how Naziís treated their prisoners, how the Chinese treated our troops in Korea, how the North Koreans and Viet Cong treated our troops and how the terrorists always treat theirs.

    Yes, one has to be living in a parallel universe to think that OUR actions will somehow cause the enemy to mirror them; one could only hope they would indeed treat our soldiers and citizens in the same way, trying to ensure they are well taken care of, trying to ensure they have constitutional rights and if tortured, their own Governments would try to try their leaders for war crimes.

    The notion that we have now somehow lowered the bar requires the willing suspension of disbelief or profound historical ignorance.

    I need to get HIP waders on when we discuss this crapola, itís getting DEEP in here.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Nope. "Chinese water torture" is a mythical form of torture which has never really been used.

    Chinese water torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If you want to see what they really used in ancient China, see this:

    Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Oh okay, waterboarding seems worse.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    One could only wish our enemies would stoop to OUR level and only use water boarding. Unfortunately they are not so inclined and prefer REAL torture like sawing the heads off their victims. Or attaching electric wires to their genitals and electrifying them. One only need remember how Naziís treated their prisoners, how the Chinese treated our troops in Korea, how the North Koreans and Viet Cong treated our troops and how the terrorists always treat theirs.

    Yes, one has to be living in a parallel universe to think that OUR actions will somehow cause the enemy to mirror them; one could only hope they would indeed treat our soldiers and citizens in the same way, trying to ensure they are well taken care of, trying to ensure they have constitutional rights and if tortured, their own Governments would try to try their leaders for war crimes.

    The notion that we have now somehow lowered the bar requires the willing suspension of disbelief or profound historical ignorance.

    I need to get HIP waders on when we discuss this crapola, itís getting DEEP in here.
    Who said you lowered the bar? I have no doubt AG etc were using worse methods before you did. I'm however talking about the honour and chivalry of America and other Western nations which something very different. Two wrongs don't make a right as the old saying accurately puts it.

    Acting always honourably and chivalrously cannot hurt in sending a message to your enemies but most importantly it maintains the freedom and dignity of our nations and makes victory that much sweeter.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    The world of intelligence gathering is not all roses you know. In Russia they'd shove a soldering iron up your butt and turn it on. In China they'd beat you with electric batons.

    If you knew that a guy was a terrorist with information on an imminent terrorist attack and you only have 48 hours to get it out of him before the attack goes forward, what are you going to do? Give him a box of chocolates?

    Waterboarding isn't exactly "humane" but neither is killing 3000 people. It could have been a lot worse. War is hell.
    I agree with you and I'm not saying that war is roses and no one gets tortured or interrogated. What I'm saying is that the U.S. should stop projecting this image of decency to the world when it engages in wartime tactics that are not decent. I inherently understand the realities of living in an anarchy of states in the world, so I'm not surprised or shocked that torture happens.

    All I'm rebelling against is the propaganda that the U.S. is such a peacekeeping force, representing the law, justice, liberty, etc. It generally only gets involved in campaigns that serve its interests, and the rules against torture that it claims to uphold are easily discarded when it suits its interests.

    That is all. If you're a wolf, just admit you're a wolf. Don't pretend to be anything else.

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