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Thread: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

  1. #21
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    I love the self righteous issues.
    We make/use incredibly horrendous weapons to decimate other human beings with, then get all bent out of shape when someone puts a guy in a box with a catepillar in order to play on his fears and extract information.
    I know what you mean.

    But you have to recognize that many people disapprove strongly of each. The creation of horrendous weapons, their use, and the caterpillars. Though I do think that most if not all humans have a fundamental impairment when it comes to ethics, as a result of survival instincts and reasoning:

    horrendous torture and violence:

    OK to do? No.
    OK to do to your arch-enemy? Of course
    OK to do to you by your arch-enemy? No!
    OK for your gov. to do to you? No
    OK for the gov. to do to people who want to rebel against the gov? Yes!
    It's like anti-ethics.

    -Mach

  2. #22
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I know what you mean.

    But you have to recognize that many people disapprove strongly of each. The creation of horrendous weapons, their use, and the caterpillars. Though I do think that most if not all humans have a fundamental impairment when it comes to ethics, as a result of survival instincts and reasoning:

    horrendous torture and violence:

    OK to do? No.
    OK to do to your arch-enemy? Of course
    OK to do to you by your arch-enemy? No!
    OK for your gov. to do to you? No
    OK for the gov. to do to people who want to rebel against the gov? Yes!
    It's like anti-ethics.

    -Mach
    It's not "okay" but if it's necessary to prevent an imminent terrorist attack that could kill 1000's of innocent people of which the person has direct knowledge, so be it.

    And I would hardly call these methods "torture." I found a message on another forum which mirrors my sentiment exactly.

    But to get back to the subject at hand.. the whole torture thing seriously does come off as light weight and it almost insults the word torture to call it torture. You have to keep in mind that the audience on the right that is supposed to be appalled by all of this will kinda think its good riddance. Torture to us like what happened to Leon Klinghoffer.. shot a guy in a wheelchair and tossed him off of a boat. Torture is the US serviceman that was kicked to death by a bunch of hijackers in the 1980s. Torture is the CIA station chief in Lebanon getting beaten and whipped to death. Torture is all the crap the Vietnamese did to our vets. Torture is the Bataan Death March, or, on the German side, the sending of some of our Jewish airmen to Aushwitz and Dachau.

    By contrast, you've got the Bush administration making sure that the guy's head is properly padded so he won't get hurt when he's thrown up against a wall, and, in the memos, a repeated emphasis on avoiding actually physically hurting some of the senior leaders of our current enemy. To us, compared to what our enemies treat the USA - hey do remember our servicemen getting dragged down the street in Somalia... or, hey, how about all the stories about American women getting stuck in Iran and having their husbands beat the crap out of them. Or, more to the point, the Taliban shooting women in a soccer stadium for mass entertainment, because, jeez, they learned how to read.

    To us, these memos don't point to an administration torturing. If anything, it seems like they are acting justly, and far superior, as usual, to any enemy the USA not only has now, but has had since World War I.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Outside of the policies of Bush/Cheney, that is just not so. Most of the conflicts we have entered were for the purpose of ending genocide or terrorist sanctuaries.
    lolwut

    WWI?
    Korea?
    Vietnam?

    So when you said "most," did you actually mean "One of the 4 major wars we've been involved in the past century"?

    Quote Originally Posted by aps View Post
    I am definitely interested in reading through these, so thank you for posting the link. What do you mean by your comment I highlighted above? I am very curious.....
    It all seems sort of surreal to me. In these memos, they reference pages and pages of case law, treaty language, studies, etc. in order to justify something so simple as grabbing a terrorist by the collar. It's impossible to read these memos and come away with the idea that the way these detainess were treated was anything less than perfectly scripted. That can be good or bad depending on your viewpoint, but the main thing I took away from it was the absurdity of all of it.

    The fact that they feel the need to spend pages and pages discussing the possible long term mental effects of solitary confinement/fear of injury/public nudity when hundreds of thousands of Americans in prison suffer the same experiences every day without thought or concern is altogether astonishing.

    Perhaps the most ironic thing at all is that a reason why the CIA was so cautious to cover absolutely everything that they might do to these people is probably because they were worried that those opposed to the prosecution of the war would eventually take control of government and punish them for their actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Torture doesn't work. It doesn't yield useful information. If you were torturing a terrorist about a ticking bomb, he wouldn't tell you squat.
    Well, guess the debate's over. Thank god you were here to share that with us.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergslagstroll View Post
    You can just take Mexico for example, that you have an American arrested their suspected of selling guns to the drug cartel. If you American protest over that he is killed during torture. Then Mexicans can say hey we are just like you after 9/11 in a national emergency and thousands of people have been killed during the drug wars, we have to do what is neccissary. That we believed that the American guy had vital information and as a poor country we don't have the same fancy equpment to monitor vital signs.
    In order to profess this nonsense, one has to pretend or willingly ignore the acts of other nations and terrorists in the past. Are you people so poorly informed about history that you think America citizens and troops were not tortured by other countries or terrorist interests before 9-11?

    What naive denial does it take for Liberals to make such inane arguments presuming that the USA has now set a new standard for torture by these few justified actions when that low standard had been set by others for centuries?

    Do the "hate America" first crowds actually believe that making such preposterous claims and idiotic assertions about the United States makes us better and safer and will prevent future atrocities?


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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by GottaHurt View Post
    I love the self righteous issues.

    We make/use incredibly horrendous weapons to decimate other human beings with, then get all bent out of shape when someone puts a guy in a box with a catepillar in order to play on his fears and extract information.
    They never did this; it was one of the suggested methods in the memos.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    They never did this; it was one of the suggested methods in the memos.
    I know this. My point is in the irony with how people justify their actions.

    You can napalm an entire village, but you better not slap a guy in the head with a shoe.
    Pain can be such a beautiful thing

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    If the Red Cross never would have been denied seeing the suspects then this wouldn't even be an issue. It would have landed people in jail or cleared their name.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

  8. #28
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    If you knew that a guy was a terrorist with information on an imminent terrorist attack and you only have 48 hours to get it out of him before the attack goes forward, what are you going to do? Give him a box of chocolates?

    Waterboarding isn't exactly "humane" but neither is killing 3000 people. It could have been a lot worse. War is hell.
    Would you be willing to torture the guy's infant child?
    Why or why not?
    Torturing an infant isn't exactly "humane" but neither is killing 3000 people. War is hell.

    Consider why you are willing to draw a line somewhere.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Would you be willing to torture the guy's infant child?
    Why or why not?
    Torturing an infant isn't exactly "humane" but neither is killing 3000 people. War is hell.

    Consider why you are willing to draw a line somewhere.
    Is an infant capable of committing a terrorist attack? No. So take your idiocy somewhere else.

  10. #30
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Would you be willing to torture the guy's infant child?
    Why or why not?
    Torturing an infant isn't exactly "humane" but neither is killing 3000 people. War is hell.

    Consider why you are willing to draw a line somewhere.
    I think most people are softies and take the sausage approach. I genuinely don't want to know the exact details of our most clandestine operations.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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