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Thread: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    My problem with using the concept that we are at war with these criminals is that a state of war, triggers our Constitution"s vast "War Powers" authority upon the President which, if we have an unintelligent or ill-intentioned President (like Bush) can & did lead us to the brink of catastrophe.
    Or, lacking the backbone to declare that terrorists are combatants and not mere criminals, failing to use those war powers results in an unintelligent and ill-intentioned President (Dear Leader) leading us back to the brink of 9/11.

    Terrorists are NOT criminals. Comparisons between terrorists and bank robbers is beyond absurd. Bank robbers don't go around blowing up buildings. Bank robbers don't fly planes into buildings. Bank robbers generally hope to live to enjoy the fruits of their ill-purposed labors.

    Terrorists are combatants who choose to set aside the normal rules by which civilized nations seek to constrain war. Choosing unconstrained war, it would be most impolitic and most impolite not to grant them their desire, and return to them the unconstrained war they offer up to the world.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    What are you talking about? Except of course appealing to your usual insults and rudeness.

    The definition includes this.

    Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person

    That seems to include waterboarding to me. It simulates drowning and is extremely distressing.
    I see you have difficulty distinguishing what is meant by "severe pain or suffering." It has been suggested that ONE prisoner was subjected to waterboarding over 183 times.

    If he was subjected to "severe pain and suffering," common sense would suggest that this would have killed them.

    Let me help you out here; breaking someone's legs would be "severe pain." Not re-setting them would be severe suffering. Slapping them in the face or pouring water over their heads hardly constitutes "severe" by any stretch.


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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I see you have difficulty distinguishing what is meant by "severe pain or suffering." It has been suggested that ONE prisoner was subjected to waterboarding over 183 times.

    If he was subjected to "severe pain and suffering," common sense would suggest that this would have killed them.

    Let me help you out here; breaking someone's legs would be "severe pain." Not re-setting them would be severe suffering. Slapping them in the face or pouring water over their heads hardly constitutes "severe" by any stretch.

    You are talking about crap that is variable. The amount of water poured on a person can be controlled. It could be poured at an irritating rate or a murdering rate... Has anyone died at all from "enhanced interrogation? If so it is obviously torture.

    Let me just try to get this straight... It is illegal to hold a man's head underwater. But if you get the sink and put it above his head then it is ok? o_O

    I thinkin we are seeing a huge false confession facility that has happened to get a few good pieces of info to cover their asses. I am THE pessimist though.
    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 04-24-09 at 03:14 PM.
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    You are talking about crap that is variable. The amount of water poured on a person can be controlled. It could be poured at an irritating rate or a murdering rate... Has anyone died at all from "enhanced interrogation? If so it is obviously torture.
    To my knowledge, no one has ever died from being trained in these processes or having them used on them. If you had read all the data and memos, there was extensive and thoughtful deliberation regarding the legality and lethality of what methods were to be approved; facts that have no bearing on the desperate Liberal partisan political rhetoric we're seeing about the need for national "morality," something that is ironically missing in most other Liberal arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Let me just try to get this straight... It is illegal to hold a man's head underwater. But if you get the sink and put it above his head then it is ok? o_O
    Holding a man's head underwater is drowning them and has led to deaths using such methods. Pouring water over their heads in a controlled fashion which does not place the person in jeopardy of death is hardly the same; how fascinating that you cannot see the difference. Or perhaps you just choose not to by willingly suspending common sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    I thinkin we are seeing a huge false confession facility that has happened to get a few good pieces of info to cover their asses. I am THE pessimist though.
    This isn't about being pessimistic; this is about swallowing Left wing hyperbole and false rhetoric that the previous adminstration was criminal to support a hyper partisan political agenda.

    I am glad to be able to clarify these issues for you.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    To my knowledge, no one has ever died from being trained in these processes or having them used on them. If you had read all the data and memos, there was extensive and thoughtful deliberation regarding the legality and lethality of what methods were to be approved; facts that have no bearing on the desperate Liberal partisan political rhetoric we're seeing about the need for national "morality," something that is ironically missing in most other Liberal arguments.



    Holding a man's head underwater is drowning them and has led to deaths using such methods. Pouring water over their heads in a controlled fashion which does not place the person in jeopardy of death is hardly the same; how fascinating that you cannot see the difference. Or perhaps you just choose not to by willingly suspending common sense?



    This isn't about being pessimistic; this is about swallowing Left wing hyperbole and false rhetoric that the previous adminstration was criminal to support a hyper partisan political agenda.

    I am glad to be able to clarify these issues for you.
    Ok.. so you can kill someone if you put their head underwater but not if you put that water in their head?

    Rice, Cheney Approved Waterboarding
    The Armed Services Committee report says that six months earlier, in December 2001, the Pentagon's legal office already had made inquiries about the use of mock interrogation and detention tactics to a U.S. military training unit that schools armed forces personnel in how to endure harsh treatment.

    In July 2002, responding to a follow-up from the Pentagon general counsel's office, officials at the training unit, the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency, detailed their methods for the Pentagon. The list included waterboarding.

    But the training unit warned that harsh physical techniques could backfire by making prisoners more resistant. They also cautioned about the reliability of information gleaned from the severe methods and warned that the public and political backlash could be "intolerable."

    "A subject in extreme pain may provide an answer, any answer or many answers in order to get the pain to stop," the training officials said in their memo.

    Less than a week later, the Justice Department issued two legal opinions that sanctioned the CIA's harsh interrogation program. The memos appeared to draw deeply on the survival school data provided to the Pentagon to show that the CIA's methods would not cross the line into torture.

    The opinion concluded that the harsh interrogation methods would be acceptable for use on terror detainees because the same techniques did not cause severe physical or mental pain to U.S. military students who were tested in the government's carefully controlled training program.

    Several people from the survival program objected to the use of their mock interrogations in battlefield settings. In an October 2002 e-mail, a senior Army psychologist told personnel at Guantanamo Bay that the methods were inherently dangerous and students were sometimes injured, even in a controlled setting.

    "The risk with real detainees is increased exponentially," he said.
    Last edited by dirtpoorchris; 04-24-09 at 03:38 PM.
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Here is a good example of how waterboard confessions where abused. (Not related to terrorists though. Just people with marijuana caught in speed traps.)


    Georgetown Security Law Brief: DOJ prosecuted Texas sheriff in 1983 for waterboarding prisoners
    The Public Record reports that in 1983, the Justice Department prosecuted a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies for waterboarding prisoners to get them to confess to crimes. The deputies were sentenced to four years in prison and Parker pleaded guilty to extortion and federal civil rights violations and received a 10-year sentence. Parker admitted that he had operated a “marijuana trap” on U.S. Highway 59, arrested suspects, and, according to court documents, subjected "prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions."
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Ok.. so you can kill someone if you put their head underwater but not if you put that water in their head?
    You made the claim:

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Has anyone died at all from "enhanced interrogation? If so it is obviously torture.
    I stated that to my knowledge, no one has ever died from the techniques; perhaps I can go as far as claiming nor seriously injured.

    How is water boarding putting water “IN” their heads? Do you even comprehend the technique? Obviously not or you wouldn’t falsely compare it to having your head shoved under water.

    The United States's Office of Legal Counsel stated the CIA's definition of waterboarding in a Top Secret 2002 memorandum as follows:

    In this procedure, the individual is bound securely to an inclined bench, which is approximately four feet by seven feet. The individual's feet are generally elevated. A cloth is placed over the forehead and eyes. Water is then applied to the cloth in a controlled manner. As this is done, the cloth is lowered until it covers both the nose and mouth. Once the cloth is saturated and completely covers the mouth and nose, air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence of the cloth… During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of twelve to twenty-four inches. After this period, the cloth is lifted, and the individual is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three or four full breaths… The procedure may then be repeated. The water is usually applied from a canteen cup or small watering can with a spout… You have… informed us that it is likely that this procedure would not last more than twenty minutes in any one application." [20]

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Here is a good example of how waterboard confessions where abused. (Not related to terrorists though. Just people with marijuana caught in speed traps.)

    Georgetown Security Law Brief: DOJ prosecuted Texas sheriff in 1983 for waterboarding prisoners
    Obviously what you describe above is blatantly an abuse of Constitutional rights and abuse by law enforcement officials to US citizens. It is illegal and a violation of the Fifth Amendment to torture US citizens to extract confessions.

    How is this in any way the same as the treatment of terrorists caught outside of the US who planned the attacks on 9-11?

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Obviously what you describe above is blatantly an abuse of Constitutional rights and abuse by law enforcement officials to US citizens. It is illegal and a violation of the Fifth Amendment to torture US citizens to extract confessions.

    How is this in any way the same as the treatment of terrorists caught outside of the US who planned the attacks on 9-11?
    Let me answer you with a question. Are 100% of the people in there terrorists?
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    You made the claim:



    I stated that to my knowledge, no one has ever died from the techniques; perhaps I can go as far as claiming nor seriously injured.

    How is water boarding putting water “IN” their heads? Do you even comprehend the technique? Obviously not or you wouldn’t falsely compare it to having your head shoved under water.

    The United States's Office of Legal Counsel stated the CIA's definition of waterboarding in a Top Secret 2002 memorandum as follows:

    In this procedure, the individual is bound securely to an inclined bench, which is approximately four feet by seven feet. The individual's feet are generally elevated. A cloth is placed over the forehead and eyes. Water is then applied to the cloth in a controlled manner. As this is done, the cloth is lowered until it covers both the nose and mouth. Once the cloth is saturated and completely covers the mouth and nose, air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence of the cloth… During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of twelve to twenty-four inches. After this period, the cloth is lifted, and the individual is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three or four full breaths… The procedure may then be repeated. The water is usually applied from a canteen cup or small watering can with a spout… You have… informed us that it is likely that this procedure would not last more than twenty minutes in any one application." [20]
    Are there rules against putting a hollow brace in the subjects mouth? If not have you ever poured a gallon of water through a cloth? It is incredibly permeable.
    I seen one training video where they shoved the cloth halfway into the guys mouth. Do you know what happens when the cloth becomes fully saturated?

    I see a problem issuing a guideline that has lethal capability if taken too far if they do not follow the exact procedure. From my experience watching people at work most do against procedure when given the chance.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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