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Thread: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It did not got without notice that much of what I said in my posts in these threads you did not respond to.
    And?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Choices take place within the constraints of circumstance.
    A rather utilitarian position, particularly given the primacy you place on honor. Whence the contradiction?

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    And?



    A rather utilitarian position, particularly given the primacy you place on honor. Whence the contradiction?
    What? Recognising that individuals act within the the constraint of many conditions and circumstances is hardly a principle that is just for the followers of Bentham. It is a position common in various ways amongst most except perhaps clones of Max Stirner.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    What? Recognising that individuals act within the the constraint of many conditions and circumstances is hardly a principle that is just for the followers of Bentham. It is a position common in various ways amongst most except perhaps clones of Max Stirner.
    If circumstance defines the choice, then only the ends can ever be a justification for means.

    However, that concept is wrong. Circumstance necessitates choice, but it cannot compel a particular choice.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    If circumstance defines the choice, then only the ends can ever be a justification for means.

    However, that concept is wrong. Circumstance necessitates choice, but it cannot compel a particular choice.
    What are you talking about? You're making this needlessly complicated, even for me.

    Circumstance effects choices but does not ttally define them. It effects the options and what is the best option sometimes but it does not stop you choosing between the options.

    I think we can agree about that, even if not why we're discussing it.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    It certainly is because it is the use of brutal and questionable means that you would certainly not want used on your troops.
    I don't want the enemy killing my troops either, does this mean we should stop killing the enemy?

    A terrorist is a broad term, one man's terrorist is the next's freedom fighter to a degree.
    Then I'll make it simple for you. A "terrorist" is anyone who deliberately targets innocent civilians while purposely neglecting the rules of war.

    It is saying that if you associate with these we consider our enemies we will use any means we feel necessary on you. They're enmies of the state after all, they are no longer human and we can do with them as we wish. It is dishonourable and it is dangerous.
    A person who deliberately targets innocent civilians while purposely neglecting the rules of war is still a human but that doesn't mean we have to treat them like one.

    Waterboarding certainly is according to the UN's definition. It causes extreme distress.
    So what? Four years in the Marine infantry and I can think of nary a time when I wasn't under "extreme distress." Does this mean I was being tortured? Hell no. It just means your defintion of torture is stupid.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Report Details Pentagon Role in Torture Tactics
    Opponents of last week's release of memos detailing CIA interrogation techniques argue that they will provide enemies of the United States with a training manual to prepare their operatives for capture. The irony is that the U.S. military appears to have done the exact opposite, taking a training program that had been designed to prepare American soldiers to withstand torture by communist regimes seeking to extract false confessions, and twisting it into a highly controversial interrogation manual.

    The story of that mutation emerges in disquieting detail in a new report by the Senate Armed Services Committee (SASC) on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody. It shows how U.S. interrogators at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay and camps in Afghanistan based some of their interrogations on techniques taken from the military's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) training program. These techniques included water-boarding, walling (slamming detainees into a flexible wall), sleep deprivation, hooding and using dogs to inspire fear. (See pictures of life inside Guantanamo)

    My favorite part is down at the end where it talks about

    "The final irony: The torture techniques around which the SERE training was devised were used by Chinese interrogators during the Korean War, not to gather actionable intelligence but to force false confessions from captured U.S. soldiers - confessions that could then be used in anti-American propaganda. "
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    That's funny...The new Atty General agreed it was torture...But .....what does HE know, right??
    Then I guess he better shut down SERE school. From what I hear, it's a veritable torture factory.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    What are you talking about? You're making this needlessly complicated, even for me.

    Circumstance effects choices but does not ttally define them. It effects the options and what is the best option sometimes but it does not stop you choosing between the options.

    I think we can agree about that, even if not why we're discussing it.
    I'll agree the rest of this discussion calls for at least a pint. How's that?

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I don't want the enemy killing my troops either, does this mean we should stop killing the enemy?
    That is different, that is part of the battlefield necessities of war. It is not unusual, it does not happen to those who are already in the custody of their enemy and is pursued, or can be, within definite constraints and boundaries.



    Then I'll make it simple for you. A "terrorist" is anyone who deliberately targets innocent civilians while purposely neglecting the rules of war.
    That is a very broad category.


    A person who deliberately targets innocent civilians while purposely neglecting the rules of war is still a human but that doesn't mean we have to treat them like one.
    Ah enemies of state can be disposed of as we wish.


    So what? Four years in the Marine infantry and I can think of nary a time when I wasn't under "extreme distress." Does this mean I was being tortured? Hell no. It just means your defintion of torture is stupid.
    Where you captured by the enemy and submitted to extreme pain and distress like that that takes place in waterboarding?
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    I'll agree the rest of this discussion calls for at least a pint. How's that?
    Two at least.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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