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Thread: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

  1. #191
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I don't see the point in engaging in your hypothetical. If such evidence came out I'd certainly read it and see if my position needed to be re-evaluated.

    However I have a gut feeling that if the military killed anyone via waterboarding the news would be all over the place such is the hysteria of the anti-waterboarding crowd.

    I do know our troops supposedly killed a guy doing the cold cell thing in Afghanistan. They left him naked, wet, and cold and he died of hypothermia. I don't support that. I don't think they intended on killing the guy but at the same time they should be schooled enough on the techniques they're using to see to it they don't accidentally off people.
    This had nothing to do with "Our Troops."....The torture was carried out by CIA contractors, operating in secret under White House authorization. That's the allegation & will undoubtedly come out as fact under Congressional & Special Prosecutor investigation.
    (Like Al Capone once said..."Two people can keep a secret very well........as long as one of them is dead!)

    If these allegations prove true........You will "certainly read it and see if my position needed to be re-evaluated. "......How very American of you!
    Last edited by Devil505; 04-21-09 at 10:36 PM.

  2. #192
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Well before the modern era it had some of the qualities of honour and gentlemanlyness. Gentlemanlyness is not anything soft, Henry V instilled honour in his men by hanging those who did any looting, even his prized archers. It can be firm and even brutal but it is not dishonourable, that is the key.

    But the point is yes sure war is dirty and nasty but there are still honourable ways of doing it and they don't include torture in almost all circumstances. I very much doubt you believe that everything is acceptable in war.
    Henry V slaughtered all prisoners taken when he defeated the French. I sincerely doubt he'd have had a problem with waterboarding unless we're talking about 2 different people. Henry V of England???

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Henry V slaughtered all prisoners taken when he defeated the French. I sincerely doubt he'd have had a problem with waterboarding unless we're talking about 2 different people. Henry V of England???
    But they had accents, and shiny armour so it was most likely carried out in a gentlemanley fashion.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

  4. #194
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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Henry V slaughtered all prisoners taken when he defeated the French. I sincerely doubt he'd have had a problem with waterboarding unless we're talking about 2 different people. Henry V of England???
    He did so because he had absolutely no choice, or considered that to be the case, the French third line was making an attack and he had 6000 prisoners milling about and who could have easily scavenged for weapons. What he did was considered a war crime even at the time, or the same sort of thing, and was not something he did lightly or bore lightly upon him.

    24-like situations aside that is nothing like the situation here. To be honest I think I could turn a blind eye in genuine situation like that but we are talking about routine applications on those who are considered high value. It is dishonourable and sets an dangerous precedent in an age where the state's power and technical abilities are growing exponentially.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #195
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    Re: Waterboarding Used 266 Times on 2 Suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You're splitting hairs. How are you defining "physical harm"? Cuts, bruises, and broken limbs? You're reduced to arguing the legalese of the term torture because you know perfectly well that it's an abuse of human rights. Civilized people don't do things like this.
    I am hardly splitting hairs here. Do you accept the UN definition then?

    [edit] Definition of torture
    Article 1 of the Convention defines torture as:

    Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

    Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_Against_Torture]United Nations Convention Against Torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Well I am not against waterboarding but I have an idea. Lock these guys up in a room with a 2 year old. When the two year old wants some juice, the terrorist will be required to give the child the juice. But then the two year old will naturally not want the juice in that particular cup. So the terrorist will have to figure out which juice cup it is the two year old wants. When he gets to the last cup and the two year old doesn't want that cup either, he will become frustrated and not offer the child any juice. But the child will be persistent that he/she wants juice, just not in any of the juice cups that they have there. After about 1 week, the terrorist will gladly give up any information needed, in order to escape the clutches of a two year old with an illogical desire for a specific juice cup that does not exist.
    LMAO....although damned true, having undergone this form of torture TWICE, I think this constitutes cruel and inhumane treatment.


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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Umm that definitions suggests it is torture.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    He did so because he had absolutely no choice, or considered that to be the case, the French third line was making an attack and he had 6000 prisoners milling about and who could have easily scavenged for weapons. What he did was considered a war crime even at the time, or the same sort of thing, and was not something he did lightly or bore lightly upon him.
    He ordered tons of unarmed prisoners killed and you're citing him as an example of honor in comparison to our horribly dishonorable government pouring water on peoples heads!!!!!!!!!!!!

    bwahahahaha
    Last edited by talloulou; 04-21-09 at 10:48 PM.

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    He ordered tons of unarmed prisoners killed and you're citing him as an example of honor in comparison to our horribly dishonorable government pouring water on peoples heads!!!!!!!!!!!!

    bwahahahaha
    1-there is no point trying to compare CIA torture techniques with an ancient British monarch

    2-the water is not poured on people's heads, it is poured into their lungs

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    Re: Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    He ordered tons of unarmed prisoners killed and you're citing him as an example of honor in comparison to our government pouring water on peoples heads!!!!!!!!!!!!

    bwahahahaha
    I was citing him as someone willing to be firm and even brutal to maintain honour.

    You seemed to have totally missed everything else I said. He was still fighting the French third line, he had 6000 men and about 6000 prisoners. There were a lot of weapons lying around, if the french prisoners had got hold of them and attacked at the same time as the french third line he would have been defeated. What he did was considered a war crime even at the time, and I'm not sure I condone it.

    But anyway that is unimportant, I wasn't citing him necessarily as paradigm of honour, I was simply showing that honour and gentlemanlyness does not require softness. Sometimes it requires discipline, firmness and even ruthlessness but it certainly rarely includes torture.

    Do try and pay attention.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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