Ron Paul: Bring back private pirate hunters

Goobieman said:

In the case of protecting merchant ships, how does "armed private security" get turned into "mercenary"?



Clearly, the pirates thrive because they know they can operate with impunity -- no one will shoot back.
Shooting back will change this.

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I understand that. I'm just saying, that if the payment of the privateers comes from the US government, then they are essentially mercenaries. I have no problem, either way, although I'd prefer that ships be able to arm themselves. But people seem to be fine with hiring out private enterprise to protect American interests at sea, and had a huge problem with hiring out private enterprise to protect American interests on the ground.

WI Crippler said:

I'm reposting this, as it might get buried in that gun talk on the other page. I would like to know the answer to this.....

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I’m not one to think of hired Mercenaries as a travesty, but the situation is still Apples and oranges

It is the difference between offering a reward for coming up with a new clean energy solution verses employing a million people and paying them a salary in hopes that they find a clean energy solution.

WI Crippler said:

I understand that. I'm just saying, that if the payment of the privateers comes from the US government, then they are essentially mercenaries. I have no problem, either way, although I'd prefer that ships be able to arm themselves. But people seem to be fine with hiring out private enterprise to protect American interests at sea, and had a huge problem with hiring out private enterprise to protect American interests on the ground.

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Seems to me that private enterprise could do this without the sanction of the US government. Create a company that escorts merchantmen with armed boats of whatever type. The shipping companies then contract with these companies for whatever service they deem necessary.

No need for this to be done under US law, or with any 'permission' from the government, and I dont think the US goverment coud do anything about it.

Heck, if I had the money, I'd do it.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

Oh look how shocked I am. look up I started a thread on the topic. Come by when you want to engage instead of bait..... :roll:

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Asking someone to back up their claim is now baiting

Anyway as requested, What do you think about privateers, do you think that this is the right solution?


I support Obama and the admin's position that this may be the right thing to do.... However like Crip is alluding to, I'd like to expand:

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I support whatever works including sniper bullets to eradicate these vermin.

"On Monday, Obama struck back. "Now, let me be clear: I actually introduced legislation in the Senate before Senator Clinton even mentioned this that said we had to crack down on private contractors like Blackwater because I don't believe that they should be able to run amok and put our own troops in danger, get paid three or four times or ten times what our soldiers are getting paid. I am the one who has been opposed to those operators. Senator Clinton is a late comer to that. But you know this is what happens during political season and I understand it."

Jeremy Scahill: Hillary vs. Obama: Who Is Better on Blackwater?


So contractors are now good? Don't get me wrong, I applaud the admin in suggesting thier use, but isn't this divergent from his position on contractors?

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I don't see a conflict seeing that shipping companies are private businesses and that we are not war with Somalia. However I do support whatever it takes to rid the seas of these vermin.

WI Crippler said:

All we ever heard from alot of people, regarding the use of mercenaries in Iraq, was that it was wrong. Several times in fact, people bitched about the use of mercenaries. So why is it ok now, in this instance, on the seas, but when its on ground all of the sudden its a travesty?

I'm not necessarily against the idea myself. I never have been. I'm just wondering where the difference lies?

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Merc's are being used on land, just in different ways than you might think.

We are teaching and training locals to work along side us, which in Iraq and Afghanistan have been the only true ways throughout the most rescent centuries, to effectively undergo military action in middle east.

I think people have a sqewed perception of practical mercinaries like the one the US uses now, and one an army mercinaries you see in pop-culture.



^are those the type you were speaking of?

If those are the case, they are not are not something any military other than than the French, if memory serves me right, take advantage of.

If America were to take advantage of those kind of personnel, a new branch would be needed to accomodate.

winston53660 said:

Asking someone to back up their claim is now baiting

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Nope, ignoring the point to concentrate on something irrelevant then stating you won't address the actual point is, however, baiting.



Come on over to that thread I started. I'd love to hear your input.

I support whatever works including sniper bullets to eradicate these vermin.



I don't see a conflict seeing that shipping companies are private businesses and that we are not war with Somalia. However I do support whatever it takes to rid the seas of these vermin.

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So if we were at war with somalia, it would be different? how?

thabigred said:

Merc's are being used on land, just in different ways than you might think.

We are teaching and training locals to work along side us, which in Iraq and Afghanistan have been the only true ways throughout the most rescent centuries, to effectively undergo military action in middle east.

I think people have a sqewed perception of practical mercinaries like the one the US uses now, and one an army mercinaries you see in pop-culture.

^are those the type you were speaking of?

If those are the case, they are not are not something any military other than than the French, if memory serves me right, take advantage of.

If America were to take advantage of those kind of personnel, a new branch would be needed to accomodate.

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Private contractors are NOT mercenaries.

Goobieman said:

In the case of protecting merchant ships, how does "armed private security" get turned into "mercenary"?

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That's the euphemism we use these days because we think mercenaries are dirty pool. Blackwater was providing "armed private security" in Iraq.

WI Crippler said:

All we ever heard from alot of people, regarding the use of mercenaries in Iraq, was that it was wrong. Several times in fact, people bitched about the use of mercenaries. So why is it ok now, in this instance, on the seas, but when its on ground all of the sudden its a travesty?

I'm not necessarily against the idea myself. I never have been. I'm just wondering where the difference lies?

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Actually that seems backwards to me. It's a travesty in this case (because we'd just be replacing Somali pirates with American pirates), whereas it was quite useful in Iraq as long as the mercenaries were kept on a short leash.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

Private contractors are NOT mercenaries.

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mer·ce·nar·y (mûrs-nr)
adj.
1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
2. Hired for service in a foreign army.

Mercenaries are people contracted out by militaries to do jobs the military would normally do. A mercenary could be pealing patatos for all the definition is worth.

We really don't need to get into semantics. The French Foreign Legion is a mercinary army, every person in that army is a mercenary. Even the engineers and other military personnel that rarely see combat.

thabigred said:

mer·ce·nar·y (mûrs-nr)
adj.
1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
2. Hired for service in a foreign army.

Mercenaries are people contracted out by militaries to do jobs the military would normally do. A mercenary could be pealing patatos for all the definition is worth.

We really don't need to get into semantics. The French Foreign Legion is a mercinary army, every person in that army is a mercenary. Even the engineers and other military personnel that rarely see combat.

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1. talk to any blackwater, ageis or other contractor and ask them if there "sole" desire is for monetary gain.

2. Contractors by definition are contracted to perform support functions not in a foreign army but as an adjunct to their local countries military.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

1. talk to any blackwater, ageis or other contractor and ask them if there "sole" desire is for monetary gain.

2. Contractors by definition are contracted to perform support functions not in a foreign army but as an adjunct to their local countries military.

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Are we really going to get into semantics?

A person who lives in the Roman empire, when I believe the word was coined, could be contracted to fight along side the roman army and do jobs for the army.

Mercinaries are contractors. You are trying to disenfranchise the word mercinary from organizations like blackwater, the fact being that every large country has employed mercinary services like blackwater or ageis. Blackwater is the modern day Gurkhas.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_of_Gurkhas]Brigade of Gurkhas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

thabigred said:

Are we really going to get into semantics?

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this is not semantics. Mercenaries worked for foreign governments in the Rhodesian war for example.

These are government contractors working is support roles up to VIP protection for the US government.

There is a stark difference. The media and the left use the term "mercenary" to besmirch these Americans.

A person who lives in the Roman empire, when I believe the word was coined, could be contracted to fight along side the roman army and do jobs for the army.

Mercinaries are contractors. You are trying to disenfranchise the word mercinary from organizations like blackwater, the fact being that every large country has employed mercinary services like blackwater or ageis. Blackwater is the modern day Gurkhas.

Brigade of Gurkha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Actually nothing alike at all.


That is more like the french foreign legion if anything.



contractors work in support roles, not combat roles.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

this is not semantics. Mercenaries worked for foreign governments in the Rhodesian war for example.

These are government contractors working is support roles up to VIP protection for the US government.

There is a stark difference. The media and the left use the term "mercenary" to besmirch these Americans.

Actually nothing alike at all.

That is more like the french foreign legion if anything.

contractors work in support roles, not combat roles.

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Mercenary means "work for a wage".

You are trying to change the definition of the word, because Mercenary has somehow become this devilish term. Probably from all the wars in Africa where mercenary armies were sent int to fight in conflicts for oppressive governments I guess.

Contractors are mercenaries, a mercenaries do not have to come from foreign lands, a contractor by definition is a mercenary.

As a result of the assumption that a mercenary is essentially motivated by money, the term "mercenary" usually carries negative connotations, though that can be a compliment in some contexts. There is a blur in the distinction between a "mercenary" and a "foreign volunteer", when the primary motive of a soldier in a foreign army is uncertain. For instance, the French Foreign Legion and the Gurkhas are not mercenaries under the laws of war, since although they may meet many of the requirements of Article 47 of the 1949 Additional Protocol I, they are exempt under clauses 47(a)(c)(d)(e)&(f); some journalists describe them as mercenaries regardless.

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"I would like to have the largest, most professional private army in the world."

Gary Jackson, president of Blackwater USA

There is nothing wrong with Blackwater being mercenaries, just as long as they follow protocol.

We would do a lot of good to employ blackwater to protect our ships.

Blackwater gunmen killed 17 innocent people at a traffic circle in Baghdad, they obviously don't have the discipline to be allowed carte blanche to hunt pirates

WillRockwell said:

Blackwater gunmen killed 17 innocent people at a traffic circle in Baghdad, they obviously don't have the discipline to be allowed carte blanche to hunt pirates

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Thats why the military dropped them, what I am saying is a private company like blackwater would be a good fit to protect our ships.

thabigred said:

Mercenary means "work for a wage".

You are trying to change the definition of the word, because Mercenary has somehow become this devilish term. Probably from all the wars in Africa where mercenary armies were sent int to fight in conflicts for oppressive governments I guess.

Contractors are mercenaries, a mercenaries do not have to come from foreign lands, a contractor by definition is a mercenary.



"I would like to have the largest, most professional private army in the world."

Gary Jackson, president of Blackwater USA

There is nothing wrong with Blackwater being mercenaries, just as long as they follow protocol.

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we disagree, and thats fine. if you ever run into a contractor ask them how they feel about that term.

We would do a lot of good to employ blackwater to protect our ships.

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100% agreed.

WillRockwell said:

Blackwater gunmen killed 17 innocent people at a traffic circle in Baghdad, they obviously don't have the discipline to be allowed carte blanche to hunt pirates

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you gotta love it when people attack a whole group for the actions of a select few.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/03/world/middleeast/03firefight.html

As the gunfire continued, at least one of the Blackwater guards began screaming, “No! No! No!” and gesturing to his colleagues to stop shooting, according to an Iraqi lawyer who was stuck in traffic and was shot in the back as he tried to flee. The account of the struggle among the Blackwater guards corroborates preliminary findings of the American investigation.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

we disagree, and thats fine. if you ever run into a contractor ask them how they feel about that term.

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A janitor when asked feels the inclination to say they are a sanitation engineer, Mercenary is a taboo word I guess.

thabigred said:

A janitor when asked feels the inclination to say they are a sanitation engineer, Mercenary is a taboo word I guess.

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It has a different and negative connotation than private military contractor, or PMC.

Compare them to the mercenaries in Rhodesia to thier support roles in the Iraq war.

thabigred said:

A janitor when asked feels the inclination to say they are a sanitation engineer, Mercenary is a taboo word I guess.

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A zealot, by any other name.... I am OLD navy. When in circles of others who have served, you will often run into special forces vets. These are guys with special skills and a different perspective. They are the only ones among us who could handle those," different" circumstances that arise in war and combat, that call for special skills. Blackwater arose out of the need to cover those circumstances, special moments. I can`t even begin to get in touch with what might have prompted the Black Water forces to make such a grievous error. If I were at sea, and pirates were comeing over the horizon, I would want special persons aboard my ship, who had a zealot like fixation for focussing on a problem like the one about to be upon us. Special skills, little understood by the rest of us, which could make all this difference. Black Water didn`t go out to the square that day, with murder as their goal, or mission, any more than the national guardsmen who went to Kent State university in Ohio in 1970. Many of those guardsmen were talking, "hippy" hate stuff on the way to the job site, but I doubt that they had planned on murder? Was there one or two thinking," maybe we could set off a firecracker, and in the confusion...". If they get the LETTER, I think CLEARWATER would be a good name for the company.