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Thread: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

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    Re: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Well if you legalize it, then other states have to recognize it, don't they?
    That's not what I'm talking about at all, though.

    I'm pointing out how headlines and language is being used to posture before you and I even debate the issue.

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    Re: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Right, so it's not a matter of "legalizing" it because it is not currently illegal.
    Same-sex marraige isn't a criminal offense but it also isn't legally recognized by the state. Thus "legalizing" it, in terms of the state stating it will legally recognize the union, would be the correct term?
    Last edited by Gibberish; 04-15-09 at 04:25 PM.
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    Re: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    There is a difference between being "illegal", or criminal offense, and not being legally recognized.

    Same-sex marraige isn't a criminal offense but it also isn't legally recognized by the state. Thus "legalizing" it, in terms of the state stating it will legally recognize the union, would be the correct term?
    "Legalize" strongly implies that it is currently a criminal offence, placing pro-gm on the defensive and placing the burden of proof on anti-gm to demonstrate why it shouldn't be.

    "Create" is the accurate term precisely because gay marriage is neither criminal nor legal. It doesn't exist. If pro-gm were to use the accurate term "create" then the burden of proof would be on them to demonstrate how gay marriage would be a benefit and compliment society.

    They can't do this because gay marriage does not compliment society. Every pro-gm argument I've read in my 3 years on DP have shown that gay marriage is at best benign when not volatile.

    "We will have the same divorce rate as you" and "we'll rais crappy kids just like you" are not a supporting arguments when presenting gay marriage as a step toward "a more perfect union", and pro-gm knows this; hence the posturing.
    Last edited by Jerry; 04-15-09 at 04:35 PM.

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    Re: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Well if you legalize it, then other states have to recognize it, don't they?
    Not currently. There's the possibility that they could be forced to by their own state courts later on, but it's not very likely in most cases.
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    Re: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    "Legalize" strongly implies that it is currently a ciminal offence, placing pro-gm on the difenceive and placing the burdon of proof on anti-gm to demonstrate why it shouldn't be.

    "Create" is the accuret term precicly because gay marriage is neither criminal nor legal. It doesn't exist, yes some want it to exist. If pro-gm were to use the acuret term "create" then the burdon of proof would be on them to demonstrate how gay marriage would be a benifit and compliment sociaty.
    They are creating a legal recognition of "gay marraige". How is that not "legalizing" it? I don't think the term implies or requires recognition of criminalization to be present. That's just me though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    They can't do this because gay marriage does not compliment sociaty. Every pro-gm argument I've read in my 3 years on DP have shown that gay marriage is at best benign when not volitile.

    "We will have the same divorce rate as you" is not a supporting argument when presenting gay marriage as a step tword "a more perfect union", and gm knowes this.
    So one group should only be granted the same abilities as other groups if they can prove that when they are given the ability that they will produce better results then the group that currently has the ability? Equality isn't a factor?
    Last edited by Gibberish; 04-15-09 at 04:38 PM.
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    Re: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Right, so it's not a matter of "legalizing" it because it is not currently illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    "Legalize" strongly implies that it is currently a criminal offence, placing pro-gm on the defensive and placing the burden of proof on anti-gm to demonstrate why it shouldn't be.
    It could be read that way, but I don't see why it has to be.

    "Create" is the accurate term precisely because gay marriage is neither criminal nor legal. It doesn't exist. If pro-gm were to use the accurate term "create" then the burden of proof would be on them to demonstrate how gay marriage would be a benefit and compliment society.
    Where are you getting that from?

    Again, because you interpret language one way doesn't mean that everyone else does. There are plenty of things in the law that are neither permitted nor illegal. Passing legislation to allow them to occur could be characterized as "creating" a new right just as it could be characterized as "legalizing" an activity that was outside the law.

    They can't do this because gay marriage does not compliment society. Every pro-gm argument I've read in my 3 years on DP have shown that gay marriage is at best benign when not volatile.
    Lolwut?

    "We will have the same divorce rate as you" and "we'll rais crappy kids just like you" are not a supporting arguments when presenting gay marriage as a step toward "a more perfect union", and pro-gm knows this; hence the posturing.
    Yes, those are the only arguments for gay marriage.
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    Re: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    They are creating a legal recognition of "gay marraige". How is that not "legalizing" it? I don't think the term implies or requires recognition of criminalization to be present. That's just me though.
    Yes, that's just you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    So one group should only be granted the same abilities as other groups if they can prove that when they are given the ability that they will produce better results then the group that currently has the ability?
    If a given piece of marital legislation doesn't have the improvement of marriage as it's goal, I have no intention of supporting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Equality isn't a factor?
    No, equality is not a factor. It never was.

    Gay-marriage is not a civil rights issue.
    Last edited by Jerry; 04-15-09 at 08:44 PM.

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    Re: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    It could be read that way, but I don't see why it has to be.
    There you go atributing absolutes....

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Where are you getting that from?
    You were told already.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Again, because you interpret language one way doesn't mean that everyone else does....
    ...more assumed absolutes I never said...

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Yes, those are the only arguments for gay marriage.
    ..and even more absolutes assumed.

    Come back when you can bring something.

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    Re: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

    I wonder how those hate filled National Organization for Marriage folk will take it. Their propagandic hate ads:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AzLrn5JVIo&feature=related"]YouTube - Lies from the "National Organization for Marriage"[/ame]

    are running in NY, NJ, MA, and VT IIRC.
    Nationalism in high dosages may be hazardous to your health. Please consult a psychiatrist before beginning a regular regimen, and if feelings of elitism and douchbaggery continue, discontinue immediately before you become unable to do so on your own.

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    Re: [NY Gov.] Will Introduce Same-Sex Marriage Bill

    The right solution is: That the state and federal vacate the realm of deciding what is or is not a legitimate marriage and get rid of any benefits for marriage people and allow religious institutions to dictate marriage on their own scale whatever it may be.

    The reality is: People that are married will not give up what they perceive as "entitlement" of discounts by the state and federal for being married (this includes the law makers).

    Therefore since those people currently getting benefits for being married will not give up those rights, the only recourse for gays is to fight for marriage rights.

    If people were TRULY interested in protecting the "sanctity of marriage" they would give up their "benefits of marriage" and let the churches dictate that.

    But since that is about as likely to happen as Jesus coming down and smoking a bong with his crew and banging some hookers, let's deal with reality of it and just say gays are going to continue their fight for marriage since the majority of "married" folk aren't going to give up their FEDERAL and STATE benefits of marriage.

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