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Thread: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

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    Student YamiB.'s Avatar
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    We still do, but would Obama do as Lincoln did and try no compromise?

    Since Obama talks so highly of Lincoln I would think he would do the same as Lincoln.

    There are large very active successionist movements in Spain, Italy and just about every country in the world.

    On average countries are suceding and making new countries more than they used to.

    It all matters on how much they want it and if conditions are suitable for succession.

    If Texas wants it enough, they can take it.
    If it was just Texas I think it would result in a bloody conflict, that would be over relatively quickly with the defeat of Texas. I think that if there was a legitimate attempt at secession Obama would likely be more hard line than Lincoln. It has now been established that unilateral secession is unconstitutional so it would not be as hard a justification as for Lincoln. This time it would actually be more likely that the Union would attack first.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    It takes much more then GDP to secede.

    California has a GDP about $500 billion higher then Texas and is on the same GDP level as France, Italy, and Spain. Texas is on the same level of Canada, Mexico, and South Korea.

    California also has some of the largest, if not the largest, international trade, agriculture, technology, and entertainment sectors to further it's ability to be self-sustaining. There really isn't much California imports from other states.

    I must say Texas is a much better place to hold a business for the average person.
    Well actually compared to Texas, California is very dependent on federal taxes, for every .97$ they pay they get a dollar back.

    They are not in a position to want to sucede, Texans are getting shafted daily.
    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    I'm fairly certain that the second part is wrong at least based on the stats I have seen. Table: Per-Capita Tax Burden and Return on Tax Dollar

    According to that it looks like Texas gets back 97 cents for every dollar, so for $1.90 it seems like they would be getting $1.84 back.
    I just read Juan Enriquez book United States of America, and he gave that $1.90 amount, he was head of havard business school, so I will take his word for it.

    His information was probably more recent.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    If it was just Texas I think it would result in a bloody conflict, that would be over relatively quickly with the defeat of Texas. I think that if there was a legitimate attempt at secession Obama would likely be more hard line than Lincoln. It has now been established that unilateral secession is unconstitutional so it would not be as hard a justification as for Lincoln. This time it would actually be more likely that the Union would attack first.
    Well if Texas's 10th Amendment rights are not being uphold, why should they not unilaterally succede?

    Is that in the 11th amendment, or is am I thinking of something else?
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    California also has some of the largest, if not the largest, international trade, agriculture, technology, and entertainment sectors to further it's ability to be self-sustaining. There really isn't much California imports from other states.
    How much of that would go away if CA was no longer part of the US?

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    How much of that would go away if CA was no longer part of the US?
    It's the averave Californian talking out of his ass, he probably lives in Berkley.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    Well if Texas's 10th Amendment rights are not being uphold, why should they not unilaterally succede?

    Is that in the 11th amendment, or is am I thinking of something else?
    The US Supreme Court Ruled that the Constitution did not allow for Unilateral secession. It was apparently based on the Constitution saying it wanted to form a perfect union and on Article 4 of the Constitution where every state is guaranteed a Republican form of government by the federal government.

    It makes sense when you think that a main point of going to the Constitution rather than the Articles of Confederation was to create a stronger central government so all of the states weren't just acting independently. This doesn't happen if a state can unilaterally secede since they would be able to leave anytime they disagree with how the government is going.

    I just read Juan Enriquez book United States of America, and he gave that $1.90 amount, he was head of havard business school, so I will take his word for it.

    His information was probably more recent.
    After a quick look around his book is from 2005 so the numbers should be the same. Looking around the net I'm seeing numbers for Texas ranging from 94-97 cents on the dollar. It would need to be more like 50 cents on the dollar to get $1 for every $1.90.

    It actually looks like my state is the one closest to this level of disparity between taxes and returns in investment. I do find it odd that many of the states who seem to complain about government spending and such most seem to get some of the higher returns for their dollar.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    The US Supreme Court Ruled that the Constitution did not allow for Unilateral secession.
    In what case, and was that casre before or after the civil war?

    It was apparently based on the Constitution saying it wanted to form a perfect union and on Article 4 of the Constitution where every state is guaranteed a Republican form of government by the federal government.
    The obvious counter-argument is that the 10th amendment reserves to the states the right to undertake actions not prohibited to the states by the Constitution. Secession is not prohibited by the Constitution.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    What does the 10th amendment have to do with secession?

    Secession is, in my opinion, an idiotic idea and based on the events of the Civil War and should never be tolerated by any American with a brain.

    What possible benefit would it be to have a bunch of separate countries? Europe is spending vast sums to attempt to create a united European Union in an effort to compete with the US.

    I can't imagine anyone thinking that secession is what this is all about. This is about State's rights and the effort to prevent the Federal Government from placing unfunded mandates on the States which violate the Constitution.

    There are limits to this as well; but basically it is wrong for the Federal Government in its effort to do its Constitutional duty to prevent unauthorized and illegal entry by foreign nationals by delegating the responsibility onto the States without funding them.

    At least that is how I view the debate.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    In what case, and was that casre before or after the civil war?
    I believe the case was Texas v. White. It was relatively soon after the civil war ended.

    The obvious counter-argument is that the 10th amendment reserves to the states the right to undertake actions not prohibited to the states by the Constitution. Secession is not prohibited by the Constitution.
    Unless your view of the Constitution through the sections I mentioned does have it prohibiting secession. Mentioning the 10th amendment isn't a counter-argument. It would be a follow-up to a counter-argument in which it was reasoned why those reasons were wrong.

    In the legal sense I think the point it moot until a case is actually brought to the SOCTUS and the precedent is overturned for unilateral secession being unconstitutional. Until that point Obama or any other president would be legally justified in preventing states from seceding.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    I believe the case was Texas v. White. It was relatively soon after the civil war ended.
    I will look.

    Unless your view of the Constitution through the sections I mentioned does have it prohibiting secession.
    Whish would be unsupportable. Compare that 'prohibition' to those found in Article I Sec 10 or the various amendments. The argument you suppose isnt a prohibition against the action sof the states, but a misapplication and misconstruance of clauses unrelated to secession in an attept to create said prohibition.

    For instance, the guarantee of a republican form of government for each state only applies to states that are part of the union. If a state is not part of the union, the guarantee doesnt apply. This doesnt in any way create a limitation on states from LEAVIING the union any more than nay other part of the Constitition, as NO part of the Constiution applies to states that are NOT pat of the union.

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