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Thread: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    The American Civil War (1861–1865), also known as the War Between the States and several other names, was a civil war in the United States of America. Eleven Southern slave states declared their secession from the U.S. and formed the Confederate States of America (the Confederacy). Led by Jefferson Davis, they fought against the U.S. federal government (the "Union"), which was supported by all the free states and the five border slave states in the north.

    In the presidential election of 1860, the Republican Party, led by Abraham Lincoln, had campaigned against the expansion of slavery beyond the states in which it already existed. The Republican victory in that election resulted in seven Southern states declaring their secession from the Union even before Lincoln took office on March 4, 1861. Both the outgoing and incoming U.S. administrations rejected secession, regarding it as rebellion.

    [...]

    Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens said[12][13] that slavery was the chief cause of secession[14] in his Cornerstone Speech shortly before the war. After Confederate defeat, Stephens became one of the most ardent defenders of the Lost Cause.[15]

    There was a striking contrast[14][16] between Stephens' post-war states' rights assertion that slavery did not cause secession[15] and his pre-war Cornerstone Speech. Confederate President Jefferson Davis also switched from saying the war was caused by slavery to saying that states' rights was the cause.

    While Southerners often used states' rights arguments to defend slavery, sometimes roles were reversed, as when Southerners demanded national laws to defend their interests with the Gag Rule and the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850. On these issues, it was Northerners who wanted to defend the rights of their states.[17]
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War]American Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    OBL 11/24/02

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It has everything to do with the "context," as you put it.





    That was lifted 30 years before the war. And then the real fight over slavery began.

    And yes, there were also tariff issues. I never said there weren't. But the economic effects of the tariffs were a drop in the ocean next to the economic and social effects of abolishing slavery. So, which do you think was more of a threat?
    That's why I said "start there" and move forward. Go from there to Jackson's renegotiation of the tariff in 1833, thanks in large part to the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions which then supported South Carolina's Nullification Crisis. The threat of a state claiming its sovereignty brought about new interpretations of the Aliens and Seditions Act that leveled it against members of Southern legislatures, specifically in South Carolina and was a key argument for raising a federal army against South Carolina in order to enforce the tariff. The whole secession argument was building before slavery was ever even threatened.

    Yeah, no kidding, considering the Proclamation wasn't until 1863.
    No need to be a smartass about it. You are the one making the erroneous claim that the Civil War was over slavery so how was I supposed to know that you actually knew any timelines at all?

    Besides, I haven't mentioned Lincoln once, and you note I said that "for the south," it was about slavery, purposely excluding Lincoln. The Union didn't go to war to end slavery. It went to war to preserve the Union.
    It went to war to preserve the economic status quo. If the South seceded successfully, then the North would suffer economically because the South had plans to introduce very low tariffs that would undercut Northern manufacturing by importing from Great Brittain. Even Lincoln was purported to have said, upon it being suggested that the South should be permitted to quietly leave, "But what will become of my tariff?".

    The war was not prosecuted by the north to keep the fam together as you would have us believe. It was over economics and Northern avarice when faced with their little protectionist tariff system being abandoned by the South.



    Didn't say you said anything. In fact, I said "it was a question."
    You implied that I was defending slavery...which I have not done.
    Last edited by jallman; 04-17-09 at 07:16 PM.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    That's why I said "start there" and move forward. Go from there to Jackson's renegotiation of the tariff in 1833, thanks in large part to the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions which then supported South Carolina's Nullification Crisis. The threat of a state claiming its sovereignty brought about new interpretations of the Aliens and Seditions Act that leveled it against members of Southern legislatures, specifically in South Carolina and was a key argument for raising a federal army against South Carolina in order to enforce the tariff. The whole secession argument was building before slavery was ever even threatened.
    Yet, they made all their loudest noise about slavery and didn't do a thing to address the other issues when they set up their own shop.


    No need to be a smartass about it.
    I wasn't. But I was responding to a smartass comment of yours.


    You are the one making the erroneous claim that the Civil War was over slavery
    I made no such claim. You need to reread.



    so how was I supposed to know that you actually knew any timelines at all?
    This is why you shouldn't make assumptions.



    It went to war to preserve the economic status quo. If the South seceded successfully, then the North would suffer economically because the South had plans to introduce very low tariffs that would undercut Northern manufacturing by importing from Great Brittain. Even Lincoln was purported to have said, upon it being suggested that the South should be permitted to quietly leave, "But what will become of my tariff?".

    The war was not prosecuted by the north to keep the fam together as you would have us believe. It was over economics and Northern avarice when faced with their little protectionist tariff system being abandoned by the South.
    Even taking this dark interpretation, it's still to preserve the Union.



    You implied that I was defending slavery...which I have not done.
    I implied no such thing. It was a question about the extent of states' rights, and in fact, the actual implication in the premise of the question is that you WOULDN'T defend slavery.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    I would love to see Texas Secede from the union. Then we'll put up a border crossing and put tariffs on goods and services, all federal agencies will pull out including funding for police and fire... of course th military will have to be removed. No more welfare, SSI, unemployment... nothing no federal funds period. The Texas economy would turn to ****, unemployment would skyrocket, people would be trying to leave in droves. And then of course, how long would it be before Tejas was calling to help fend off the annexation by Mexico.

    I would SO love to see that happen just so the ignorant fools who think this idea is peachy could beg to be brought back into the union. GO TEJAS!!!

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Yet, they made all their loudest noise about slavery and didn't do a thing to address the other issues when they set up their own shop.




    I wasn't. But I was responding to a smartass comment of yours.




    I made no such claim. You need to reread.





    This is why you shouldn't make assumptions.





    Even taking this dark interpretation, it's still to preserve the Union.





    I implied no such thing. It was a question about the extent of states' rights, and in fact, the actual implication in the premise of the question is that you WOULDN'T defend slavery.
    I'm done here. I tried to explain it to you and as I stated before...you are married to your revisionist perspective and there is nothing that will divorce you from it. I refuse to beat my head against a wall over it so think whatever you've been led to think. It appears you are happy with your fairy tales so who am I to rob you of them?

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I'm done here.
    Of course you are.


    I tried to explain it to you and as I stated before...you are married to your revisionist perspective and there is nothing that will divorce you from it. I refuse to beat my head against a wall over it so think whatever you've been led to think. It appears you are happy with your fairy tales so who am I to rob you of them?
    Dunno; looks to me like I responded pretty well to everything you wrote, whereas you've proceeded mostly on unfounded assumptions and misreadings of my posts.

    But hey; I guess I done bin told.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Of course you are.




    Dunno; looks to me like I responded pretty well to everything you wrote, whereas you've proceeded mostly on unfounded assumptions and misreadings of my posts.

    But hey; I guess I done bin told.
    No, you "done bin" given up on. It probably isn't the first time either.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No, you "done bin" given up on. It probably isn't the first time either.
    OK.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    I would love to see Texas Secede from the union. Then we'll put up a border crossing and put tariffs on goods and services, all federal agencies will pull out including funding for police and fire... of course th military will have to be removed. No more welfare, SSI, unemployment... nothing no federal funds period. The Texas economy would turn to ****, unemployment would skyrocket, people would be trying to leave in droves. And then of course, how long would it be before Tejas was calling to help fend off the annexation by Mexico.

    I would SO love to see that happen just so the ignorant fools who think this idea is peachy could beg to be brought back into the union. GO TEJAS!!!

    Over the long run it would be the US that loses out considering we are the only red state that contributes more in federal taxes than we get back. FYI many around here consider me liberal.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    The colonies did not secede from England, because they were never sovereign members of the British Empire, they were simply possessions.
    My point was, they had no legal right to seperate themselves from Britain, but they did it anyway, and since they succeeded they are now the heros of our Revolution and our Founders. Perspective.


    When the states joined the Union, part of the agreement was that they would stay together no matter what, the Union was not a club they could un-join. That's why Lincoln was determined to save the Union, the secession of southern states was a test of the concept.
    A state cannot secede, just like you can't leave the Mafia.
    Mafia, nice analogy.

    My point is, legalities be darned... the Founders had no legal ground to stand on, and they made a stand anyway. It is remotely possible that in the near future someone may make a similar choice. Outlaw or hero, it depends on who writes the history books.

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