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Thread: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The re-admission process was the outrgowth of Charles Sumner's legal rationalizations of "state suicide" and statewide felo de se.

    The flaw in the logic is that if a state has the capacity to dissolve itself via secession from the Union, then secession becomes accomplished fact, and that the inhabitants of the presumably dissolved state are then free to establish such government outside the Union as they see fit; felo de se fails because there was no statute prohibiting such dissolution, nor does common law address the notion as applied to states, and thus no state felonious conduct.

    However, if a state, by secession, ceases to be a state, then the territory of that dissolved state necessarily is outside the United States--it cannot be a territory of the United States because the territory was not "owned" by the United States for the duration of statehood, and thus, upon secession/dissolution, the territory of that state is outside the jurisdiction of the United States, and the inhabitants of that territory are unencumbered from fashioning a new government for themselves.

    It is worth noting that even Texas v White, the one Supreme Court ruling I know of touching on secession, did not absolutely say that secession was unequivocally legally impossible.



    If there can be "consent of the States," there can be secession.
    Even if you follow Texas v. White, it doesn't change anything -- "the States" didn't consent.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Oh...but it is.
    The Confederate constitution would indicate otherwise. If the supremacy of state sovereignty were their foremost concern, they would have addressed it. But they didn't. Instead, they bolstered slavery.

    In any case, there are many things states are not free to impose within the confines of their borders, and by any measure of enlightened thought, slavery sure as hell would to be one of them.

    Look, the slaveowners of the south didn't want to ruin their personal economies, so they wanted to preserve their wretched institution, and that's just about it. It's not the like north was wanting them to give up cotillions, mint julep, or anything else about their culture -- just their slaves.

    Are you going to argue, by the way, that if today there were no 13th Amendment, or if for some reason it were repealed, that any state should be able to institute slavery?
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The Confederate constitution would indicate otherwise. If the supremacy of state sovereignty were their foremost concern, they would have addressed it. But they didn't. Instead, they bolstered slavery.
    There was no need to "bolster states rights" among states that were already like minded. And slavery was mentioned because it was a pressing issue to the agricultural south who relied on slaves at the time.

    In any case, there are many things states are not free to impose within the confines of their borders, and by any measure of enlightened thought, slavery sure as hell would to be one of them.
    Not during that time. Context is important.

    Look, the slaveowners of the south didn't want to ruin their personal economies, so they wanted to preserve their wretched institution, and that's just about it. It's not the like north was wanting them to give up cotillions, mint julep, or anything else about their culture -- just their slaves.
    That is so absurdly false I don't even know how to address it.

    Are you going to argue, by the way, that if today there were no 13th Amendment, or if for some reason it were repealed, that any state should be able to institute slavery?
    I don't know what makes you think that.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Slavery was intrinsictly tied to the Civil War, there's no question about that.

    However, how much of the "reason" it was for it is extremely debatable.

    State rights, economy, societal issues all played into it. Slavery tied to many of these things.

    However, for me, the breaking point is here....Would it still have happened if we had never had slavery in the first place?

    I think, essentally, yes. Slavery was the ignition more than the root cause. The root cause in my mind was the disconnect between the industrious north and the agricultural south, and the disagreement in regards to the amount of control one should be able to put upon the other in a governmental level. Slavery happened to be how it was manifested and BECAUSE it was, it is largely tied to it (the economy issues tie into slavery. The societal issues tie into slavery. even the state rights issues tie into slavery). HOWEVER, I think if it was not slavery it would've been something else.

    Ultimately in my mind the civil war was a culture war based on States Rights and the societal differences between the two areas of the country. Slavery was directly tied to it all, but I wouldn't actually call it the root issue as much as the tool used by the issue.
    It's very hard to say if the war would have happened or not without slavery, because if there had been no slavery, so many other things would have been different that you would not have a directly comparable situation. You can't just lift the slaves out. Things were the way they were because of hundreds of years of history.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    There was no need to "bolster states rights" among states that were already like minded.
    They claimed the Union was fundamentally flawed because it didn't have sufficient guarantees of state sovereignty. They were also smart people who knew that the interests of Virginia and the interests of Arkansas weren't always going to be the same. And, they attempted to recruit states such as New York into the Confederacy.

    And slavery was mentioned because it was a pressing issue to the agricultural south who relied on slaves at the time.
    Yes, it was the primary impetus.


    Not during that time. Context is important.
    Yeah, the context was that the southern states were the only place in all of Western civilization which hadn't abolished slavery as the evil it was.


    That is so absurdly false I don't even know how to address it.
    Give it a shot, because saying it doesn't make it so.


    I don't know what makes you think that.
    It was a question. If there were no 13th Amendment (and there needn't have been), and Colorado wanted to institute slavery, would you be OK with it? If not, why not, and what should be done about it? Should it stand?
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    They claimed the Union was fundamentally flawed because it didn't have sufficient guarantees of state sovereignty. They were also smart people who knew that the interests of Virginia and the interests of Arkansas weren't always going to be the same. And, they attempted to recruit states such as New York into the Confederacy.



    Yes, it was the primary impetus.
    I will grant that it may have been the final straw, but it was not the core issue.

    Yeah, the context was that the southern states were the only place in all of Western civilization which hadn't abolished slavery as the evil it was.
    No, that was not the context.


    Give it a shot, because saying it doesn't make it so.
    I don't need to hold a history lesson for you because you are married to your revisionist ideas and nothing will divorce you from them.


    It was a question. If there were no 13th Amendment (and there needn't have been), and Colorado wanted to institute slavery, would you be OK with it? If not, why not, and what should be done about it? Should it stand?
    Yes, and it was an absurd question that I will not indulge.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I will grant that it may have been the final straw, but it was not the core issue.
    They wanted to keep their slaves. They knew they were losing. Hence, they decided to try secession.


    No, that was not the context.
    It sure as hell was. Enlightened civilization had condemned the practice as unconscionable long before.


    I don't need to hold a history lesson for you because you are married to your revisionist ideas and nothing will divorce you from them.
    The idea that it was a fight about states' rights is the revisionist history. It was a crutch. It was an excuse. But for the south, it was about preserving slavery.

    It actually irritates me quite a bit that people I agree with -- people who believe in federalism, the limits of the federal government, and the 10th Amendment -- latch on so fervently to the Confederate cause and blind themselves to what was really going on because of the states' rights fantasy involved.

    Sure, they sang a few catchy philosophical tunes. But they were just slogans. They perverted a just principle into serving eminently unjust ends.

    It does no one who believes in the fundamental principles of federalism any good at all to be such fervent defenders of the Confederacy, and it does the philosophy even more disservice.


    Yes, and it was an absurd question that I will not indulge.
    Why not? It's directly relevant. If it were a legitimate state sovereignty issue for the south then, it would be for any state now.

    But I think you realize the point -- slavery was an evil that trumps states' rights.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    They wanted to keep their slaves. They knew they were losing. Hence, they decided to try secession.
    No, they had faced a run of protectionist tariffs that caused lower revenues in exported goods while forcing them to buy finished goods from the North at higher prices. The North had been attempting to build itself on the backs of Southern agriculture for decades and then attempted punative economic policies that would benefit only the Northern industrial sector of the economy.

    Slavery was secondary.


    It sure as hell was. Enlightened civilization had condemned the practice as unconscionable long before.
    Which has what to do with the reason the southern states seceded? Nothing.


    The idea that it was a fight about states' rights is the revisionist history. It was a crutch. It was an excuse. But for the south, it was about preserving slavery.

    It actually irritates me quite a bit that people I agree with -- people who believe in federalism, the limits of the federal government, and the 10th Amendment -- latch on so fervently to the Confederate cause and blind themselves to what was really going on because of the states' rights fantasy involved.

    Sure, they sang a few catchy philosophical tunes. But they were just slogans. They perverted a just principle into serving eminently unjust ends.

    It does no one who believes in the fundamental principles of federalism any good at all to be such fervent defenders of the Confederacy, and it does the philosophy even more disservice.
    I would suggest you begin your enlightenment by looking at the Tariff of Abominations of 1828 and then move forward from there. The Civil War wasn't just about Lincoln and his Proclamation and it damned sure wasn't about slavery at its core.

    Why not? It's directly relevant. If it were a legitimate state sovereignty issue for the south then, it would be for any state now.

    But I think you realize the point -- slavery was an evil that trumps states' rights.
    I never said it wasn't. I said that slavery wasn't the real issue behind the Civil War. I don't recall ever making any assertion about the moral value of slavery so please don't attribute to me things I did not say.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Which has what to do with the reason the southern states seceded? Nothing.
    It has everything to do with the "context," as you put it.



    I would suggest you begin your enlightenment by looking at the Tariff of Abominations of 1828 and then move forward from there.
    That was lifted 30 years before the war. And then the real fight over slavery began.

    And yes, there were also tariff issues. I never said there weren't. But the economic effects of the tariffs were a drop in the ocean next to the economic and social effects of abolishing slavery. So, which do you think was more of a threat?


    The Civil War wasn't just about Lincoln and his Proclamation and it damned sure wasn't about slavery at its core.
    Yeah, no kidding, considering the Proclamation wasn't until 1863.

    Besides, I haven't mentioned Lincoln once, and you note I said that "for the south," it was about slavery, purposely excluding Lincoln. The Union didn't go to war to end slavery. It went to war to preserve the Union.



    I never said it wasn't. I said that slavery wasn't the real issue behind the Civil War. I don't recall ever making any assertion about the moral value of slavery so please don't attribute to me things I did not say.
    Didn't say you said anything. In fact, I said "it was a question."
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    I thought these would be relevant to the discussion over the importance of slavery in secession and the formation of the Confederacy.

    Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession

    Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
    Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union
    In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.
    ...
    That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.
    Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union
    Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.
    Cornerstone Speech by Alexander H. Stephens
    Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
    Jallman - Can you define what you mean by the term state's rights?
    Last edited by YamiB.; 04-17-09 at 06:54 PM.
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