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Thread: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Because it violated the right of the people of the southern states to have their property retuned to them.
    So apparently state's rights doesn't refer to states having control over the laws in their borders over the federal government. I guess that what it really meant is that the South gets to have their states control any other states.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Secession is not prohibuited by the Constitution.
    According to the 10th amendment, States retain all rights not prohibited by the Constitution.
    Thus, they retained the right to secession.


    The right of a sovereign state to determine what is in its best interest?
    Somehow, I doubt that what the 10th Amendment had in mind. You would have to prove that with something other than your opioion. To me that means as long as state laws doesn't try to supersecede federal law (which the constitution states it clearly doesn't) States can run their own affairs; I don't think destroying the Union has anything to do with the 10th Amendment.

    Again, I ask, where does the Constitution say or even imply that a State can dissolve the Union becuase it feels slighted by the federal goverment in some way? My understanding is the proscribed solution to dealing with a federal goverment that is not working is to vote them out. But please, Show me where it is clearly stated or clearly implied where the framers of the constitution said secession is okay. Thanks.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    So apparently state's rights doesn't refer to states having control over the laws in their borders over the federal government.
    I'm not sure you understand the issue. Allow me to create a parallel:

    If a state passes a law that allows it to deny extradition of criminal to another state, the state who has been denied extratidition has had its rights violated. If the federal government refuses force the state that refused to extradite that criminal, then the state that ha sbeen denied extradition has had its rights violated.

    The issue regarding the FSU is similar.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Anyone who has studied the war beyond 8th grade is aware of this.
    So true.

    Until 8th grade, we were told it was about slavery.

    Until 12th grade, we were told it was about state's rights.

    In college, we found out it was about sectarianism and economics.

    I wonder if part of getting a phd in american history involves being let in on the secret that it was really about lincoln being gay.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinaguy View Post
    Somehow, I doubt that what the 10th Amendment had in mind.
    You can doubt it all you want -- but until you show where secession is an act prohibited by the Constitution, your doubts are withoug merit -- and so,you would have to prove that with something other than your opioion.

    There is NO doubt what the 10th amendment says, just as there is NO doubt that the Constitution contans NO language that prohibits secession.

    To me that means as long as state laws doesn't try to supersecede federal law (which the constitution states it clearly doesn't) States can run their own affairs; I don't think destroying the Union has anything to do with the 10th Amendment.
    You would have to prove that with something other than your opioion.

    Again, I ask, where does the Constitution say or even imply that a State can dissolve the Union
    This has been explained to you -- the act is not prohibited by the Constitution, and therefore is a right retained under the 10th amendment.

    Note also that 'secession' and 'dissolution' are seperate things -- there is nothing in the Constititon that prevents the states from passing an amendment that declares the Constititon null and void, thereby dissolving the untion.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So true.

    Until 8th grade, we were told it was about slavery.

    Until 12th grade, we were told it was about state's rights.

    In college, we found out it was about sectarianism and economics.

    I wonder if part of getting a phd in american history involves being let in on the secret that it was really about lincoln being gay.
    In truth, it was a combination of all those issues. But people like Yagmi will sit there and tell you it was about a single issue, vilifying the south as some kind of empire of slave traders that had to be stopped at all costs.

    That's simply not true and the North had just as much hand in the events that led up to the South seceding as any other factor. Slavery really was secondary to the whole issue. With the advent of the cotton gin, slavery would have probably died out in the South anyway, given a few more decades.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    In truth, it was a combination of all those issues. But people like Yagmi will sit there and tell you it was about a single issue, vilifying the south as some kind of empire of slave traders that had to be stopped at all costs.
    I don't believe I ever said that it was the only issue. I was pointing out that it was the driving force behind secession and the formation of the Confederacy, according to the Confederates themselves. You're the one being dishonest by saying the war was not about slavery at all.

    That's simply not true and the North had just as much hand in the events that led up to the South seceding as any other factor. Slavery really was secondary to the whole issue. With the advent of the cotton gin, slavery would have probably died out in the South anyway, given a few more decades.
    I'd say that it was better to end slavery rather than wait a couple more decades. Even without that there seems to be little evidence that the South was going to phase out slavery. The cotton gin is commonly credited with helping slavery survive and expand. Making it easier to process cotton does not eliminate the labor needed to plant, maintain, and harvest the crop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I'm not sure you understand the issue. Allow me to create a parallel:

    If a state passes a law that allows it to deny extradition of criminal to another state, the state who has been denied extratidition has had its rights violated. If the federal government refuses force the state that refused to extradite that criminal, then the state that ha sbeen denied extradition has had its rights violated.

    The issue regarding the FSU is similar.
    Okay I thought that we were going by the definition of state's rights that is commonly used today where states are able to control their own laws independently of the federal government. I apologize for misunderstanding.

    Do you think that it would be justifiable for countries to attack us for harboring refugees who would be punished by their government due to things such as their religion or showing political dissent?
    Last edited by YamiB.; 04-17-09 at 04:03 PM.
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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    I don't believe I ever said that it was the only issue. I was pointing out that it was the driving force behind secession and the formation of the Confederacy, according to the Confederates themselves. You're the one being dishonest by saying the war was not about slavery at all.
    At this point, all I can say is get back to me after you've read a history book.

    I'd say that it was better to end slavery rather than wait a couple more decades. Even without that there seems to be little evidence that the South was going to phase out slavery. The cotton gin is commonly credited with helping slavery survive and expand. Making it easier to process cotton does not eliminate the labor needed to plant, maintain, and harvest the crop.
    The lack of depth which your analyses exhibit is alarming. The cotton gin itself wasn't a deciding factor. It was what the implication of machinery being able to do what people once had to do by hand. The technology that brought you the cotton gin also brought you other machinery that took the place of many menial tasks on a farm.

    You don't have to feed and house and clothe and discipline and supervise and guard a machine. And you certainly don't have to listen to it sing spirituals about wanting to be free. Slavery would have died out shortly after the cotton gin just due to economics.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    Okay I thought that we were going by the definition of state's rights that is commonly used today where states are able to control their own laws independently of the federal government. I apologize for misunderstanding.
    No problem.

    Do you think that it would be justifiable for countries to attack us for harboring refugees who would be punished by their government due to things such as their religion or showing political dissent?
    This is a misrepresentation of what happened, and isnt relevant to the 'reason for secession' argument.

    In any event, the 'attack' came when the Union refused to remove troops from Southern territory, which, clearly, the South had the right to insist upon, and, just as clearly, had a right to act upon.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 04-17-09 at 04:32 PM.

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    Re: Gov. Perry Backs Resolution Affirming Texas’ Sovereignty Under 10th Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    At this point, all I can say is get back to me after you've read a history book.
    I prefer primary documents and scholarly journal articles on the subject. Perhaps you should try doing the same. I'll be happy to provide some when I get to my laptop and have the resources with me.

    The lack of depth which your analyses exhibit is alarming. The cotton gin itself wasn't a deciding factor. It was what the implication of machinery being able to do what people once had to do by hand. The technology that brought you the cotton gin also brought you other machinery that took the place of many menial tasks on a farm.

    You don't have to feed and house and clothe and discipline and supervise and guard a machine. And you certainly don't have to listen to it sing spirituals about wanting to be free. Slavery would have died out shortly after the cotton gin just due to economics.
    With the advent of the cotton gin, slavery would have probably died out in the South anyway, given a few more decades.
    Where exactly did the machinery for the fields come up? You mentioned the cotton gin as being something that would lead to a lessening of slavery, it did the opposite. You did not say due to modernization of farm equipment that there would be less need for field hands, you only brought up the cotton gin. I'm also wondering how long you were expecting for the cotton gin to have this effect a century? Eli Whitney developed his version in the 1790s.
    I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
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    -Aristotle

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