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Thread: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

  1. #51
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    What's the gun related death toll in your country?
    Now compare that to the USA.
    Thank you.
    Factor in the number of guns to that number of deaths and they are remarkably similar.

    If more guns - more deaths, then the rate per gun would be higher where there are more guns.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 04-15-09 at 12:12 PM.

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No, hes saying that it CAN lead to that. And it has.


    I believe the story points out that the guns were made illegal and their owners were required to turn them in..
    Yeah, it was turn them in, or they'll be confiscated.

    A whole lot of choice they had there.
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    That would leave out cultural factors and relative population.

    Instead, let's look at all violent crime before the UK instituted strict gun control, and all violent crime after. While we're doing that, lets not forget that there have been a number of scandals about police departments and gov't bureaus in the UK under-reporting crime to make themselves look better.
    You're making up excuses to dodge the answer because you know full well that England's gun related death is WAY lower than the USA. We aren't talking about violent crimes, we are talking about gun related crimes. But that harms your argument so you'd better avoid it...

    Then we can look at some studies about how often guns are used in the USA to stop a crime; for example the CNN study that put defensive firearm uses in America at the better part of a million per year.
    I'd like to read that, got a link?

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If you say so. You don't sound much like it in this thread.
    How so, because I am an advocate for gun registration?

    Hm. And while he is pointing a gun at people, we are supposed to divine whether he is a mere robber or a mass-murderer-wannabe through telepathy?
    Is this supposed to pass as an argument? Can you name one mass murderer who shouted "give me your money" before opening fire? Mass murderers do go to liquor stores and 7/11 to find masses of people to kill. Keep trying.

    Actually, in the vast majority of states, you don't have to register your guns to carry, merely obtain a carry permit. You may then carry whatever gun you wish.
    And that is a problem in my view.

    While the case may be overstated sometimes, there is nonetheless considerable truth in registration as a prequel to confiscation, thus:

    RU|Once again, registration leads to confiscation

    Irons in the Fire: Once, more, "Registration leads to confiscation",

    (Gun) Registration: The Nazi Paradigm

    ALL THE WAY DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE: GUN PROHIBITION IN ENGLAND AND SOME LESSONS FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES IN AMERICA

    Nazi Germany's registration-to-confiscation-to-genocide is particularly instructive.

    I think it is more than mere hyperbole.

    Kleck's study on defensive gun useage vastly exceeding homicides:

    Kleck-Gertz DGU Freq Study (gunsandcrime)
    No, it is mere hypoerbole as well as fear mongering. There are over 300 million people in the USA, our government will NEVER be able to pass a law that would enact the confiscation of private citizens guns. To say otherwise is either intellectual dishonesty, fear mongering and or ignorance.

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    How so, because I am an advocate for gun registration?


    Is this supposed to pass as an argument? Can you name one mass murderer who shouted "give me your money" before opening fire? Mass murderers do go to liquor stores and 7/11 to find masses of people to kill. Keep trying.


    And that is a problem in my view.


    No, it is mere hypoerbole as well as fear mongering. There are over 300 million people in the USA, our government will NEVER be able to pass a law that would enact the confiscation of private citizens guns. To say otherwise is either intellectual dishonesty, fear mongering and or ignorance.
    They'd never be able to do it right now.. but how far down the road would their attempt be? How long would it take to restrict gun rights to the point where they can just take them?

    Registration has never prevented crime, nor has it ever really helped all that much in solving crime. And historically it's led to confiscation.

    Last I checked, mass murderers like targeting gun free zones... schools, post offices, federal buildings, etc..etc. Are you lost in the conversation?
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    Registration has never prevented crime, nor has it ever really helped all that much in solving crime.
    AND it is an infringement on your right to arms.
    But hey - what's wrong with ignoring the Constition, especially when doing so creates no real benefit?

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    AND it is an infringement on your right to arms.
    But hey - what's wrong with ignoring the Constition, especially when doing so creates no real benefit?
    I like how their only justifications are "The government won't try and take your guns right now.".

    I bet 75 years ago people wouldn't have believed the government would be doing mass spying on it's own citizens... or declaring pre-emptive strikes, or bailing out failing companies...

    My, how things change.
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    I like how their only justifications are "The government won't try and take your guns right now.".

    I bet 75 years ago people wouldn't have believed the government would be doing mass spying on it's own citizens... or declaring pre-emptive strikes, or bailing out failing companies...

    My, how things change.
    ....maybe I`m a libertarian, because I understood every single word you said, and what you meant by your statements.

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    GUN CONTROL - What its done to the world In 1929, the Soviet Union
    established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million
    dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
    exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to
    1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded
    up and exterminated. Germany established gun control in 1938 and from
    1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to
    defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. China established
    gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political
    dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
    exterminated. Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to
    1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded
    up and exterminated. Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in
    the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

    Go ahead and fact check all of that...

    Then take a look at cali confiscating sks's that they decided all of a sudden were illegal... then look at the government and how it disarmed people that were survivors of katrina.

    Then remove your foot from your mouth.
    First of all this is the USA and our culture and system of government is VASTLY different than ANY of those nations you cite, nor are we living in pre-21st century. Ease of access to information, 24 hour news cycles and the ease of individual and group contact via the web and other cell/sat technology make disarming the American populace completely impossible.

    As for the NRA's propaganda film.

    The first woman was disobeying and arguing with THE POLICE AND BRANDISHED A HANDGUN. It doesn't matter that she is old or wasn't pointing it at her, she had it in her hand and she was telling the police she would not leave her home during a mandatory evacuation because a class 5 hurricane was approaching which devistated her city.

    2nd, the guys in video were in an area that lacked police protection, was known to have looters roaming, where violence had taken place. The cops don't know these guys from adam. As far as they are concerned they could have just stolen those guns. Did the guys get their gun back?

    3rd, since when isn't gods protection enough for a baptist minister? She had her gun and her bible... I wonder which she put her faith in more... Where in the NT did Jesus say keep your sword close to defend yourself? I know, that's irrelevant but I just love to catch xians being honest since it doesn't happen all that often.
    Not to mention that SHE DIDN'T HAVE HER GUN CONFISCATED.

    4th, beyond the fact that we don't know if this guy is truthful but lets assume he is. He said it was mayhem and that the police didn't have control. So they are trying to get control and as I said earlier, they don't know a looter from a guy trying to get his things from his home. Statistically you are more safe if you don't pull a weapon out against a robber. If you give a robber what they want (material crap that's not worth risking your life over) they will leave you alive.

    5th, the guy is showing us the weapons that were confiscated. Meaning, he got them back. See above for the reasons why they were confiscated.

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    This nation will be here long after we are gone. I think we have an obligation to ensure future generations right to keep and bear arms. A good first step is to not surrender little pieces. A registration here, a ban there. Next thing you know all those little things are a really big problem. The best thing we can do is stop the little things in their tracks so that they don't have a chance to become serious threats ten or twenty years from now. Those things have a way of creeping up on you.
    *insert profound statement here*

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