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Thread: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

  1. #41
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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    UK violent crime, before and after gun control:

    Gun Control's Twisted Outcome: Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S. - Reason Magazine

    “The Home Office figures — which exclude crimes involving air weapons — show the number of deaths and injuries caused by gun attacks in England and Wales soared from 864 in 1998-99 to 3,821 in 2005-06.”

    Australia’s experience with gun control is similar to the U.K.’s.

    “The number of Victorians murdered with firearms has almost trebled since the introduction of tighter gun laws.” Geelong Advertiser, Victoria, Sept. 11, 1997.

    “Gun crime is on the rise despite tougher laws imposed after the Port Arthur massacre, but gun control lobbyists maintain Australia is a safer place . . . The number of robberies involving guns jumped 39% last year to 2183, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, and assaults involving guns rose 28% to 806. The number of gun murders, excluding the Port Arthur massacre, increased by 19% to 75.” — “Gun Crime Rises Despite Controls,” Illawarra Mercury, Oct. 28, 1998.

    “Crime involving guns is on the rise despite tougher laws. The number of robberies with guns jumped 39% in 1997, while assaults involving guns rose 28% and murders by 19%.” — “Gun crime soars,” Morning Herald, Sydney, Oct. 28, 1998.

    “Murders by firearms have actually increased (in Victoria) since the buyback scheme, which removed 225,000 registered and unregistered firearms from circulation. There were 18 shooting murders in 1996-97, after the buyback scheme had been introduced, compared with only six in 1995-1996 before the scheme started.” — “Killings rise in gun hunt,” Herald Sun, Melbourne, Dec. 23, 1998.

    “Victoria is facing one of its worst murder tolls in a decade and its lowest arrest rate ever.” — Herald Sun, Melbourne, Dec. 11, 1999.

    “The environment is more violent and dangerous than it was some time ago.“ — South Australia Police Commissioner Mal Hyde, reported in The Advertiser, Adelaide, Dec. 23, 1999.

    After the ban, D.C.’s murder rate only once fell below what it was in 1976. From 1977 to 2003, there were only two years when D.C.’s violent crime rate fell below the rate in 1976. After the ban, DC’s murder and violent rates rose relative to Maryland and Virginia as well as relative to other cities with more than 500,000 people, according to a Federal Emergency Management Agency report.
    Right Face!: Gun Ownership Fights Crime

    Evidence strongly suggests that gun control does little to deter crime, and probably encourages it by disarming law-abiding citizens.

    G.

  2. #42
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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    I can't wait to find out that this guy was actually a guard for the building or something... remember the church shooting that turned out to be a hired guard instead of the "average citizen who happened to be at church with her gun".

    First let me remind the lynch mob that I am a gun owner and gun advocate.
    If you say so. You don't sound much like it in this thread.


    Most gun related robberies do not end in the robber shooting someone
    .

    Hm. And while he is pointing a gun at people, we are supposed to divine whether he is a mere robber or a mass-murderer-wannabe through telepathy?



    Regardless, the shooter had a permit to carry. I wonder if he had to go through the whole registration process to get it.
    Actually, in the vast majority of states, you don't have to register your guns to carry, merely obtain a carry permit. You may then carry whatever gun you wish.

    Someone said regulation ends in taking away our right to carry. Hyperbole and fantasy. Our history proves we will not go the route of England and remove all guns from the hands of private citizens. Gin up some more fear mongering why don't you... after all, it's all you've got.
    While the case may be overstated sometimes, there is nonetheless considerable truth in registration as a prequel to confiscation, thus:

    RU|Once again, registration leads to confiscation

    Irons in the Fire: Once, more, "Registration leads to confiscation",

    (Gun) Registration: The Nazi Paradigm

    ALL THE WAY DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE: GUN PROHIBITION IN ENGLAND AND SOME LESSONS FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES IN AMERICA

    Nazi Germany's registration-to-confiscation-to-genocide is particularly instructive.

    I think it is more than mere hyperbole.

    Kleck's study on defensive gun useage vastly exceeding homicides:

    Kleck-Gertz DGU Freq Study (gunsandcrime)

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-14-09 at 06:44 PM.

  3. #43
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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    So its never been used to help the government solve crime? And what about all those states that have had registration on the books for years and have still not confiscated them? Hell, while we're no the subject, show me those confiscation cases you're so scared about.
    NRA: The Untold Story of Gun Confiscation After Katrina | Red County

    That was just recently... btw.

    How about this, you show me where gun registration and ballistics registration have helped solve crime.. or prevent it.

    Then we'll talk about how well registration would work.
    Last edited by stevenb; 04-14-09 at 07:29 PM.
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    I can't wait to find out that this guy was actually a guard for the building or something... remember the church shooting that turned out to be a hired guard instead of the "average citizen who happened to be at church with her gun".

    First let me remind the lynch mob that I am a gun owner and gun advocate.
    Most gun related robberies do not end in the robber shooting someone. The guy was probably an out of work republican who probably would have gotten caught by the cops if he'd been allowed to flee with the paulty sum he would have gotten from this robbery. I mean, he's robbing an AA meeting so he's obviously not thought out his plan to begin with. Now he is dead. If it was a bank robbery I'd be less sympathetic but the guy was robbing an AA meeting.

    Regardless, the shooter had a permit to carry. I wonder if he had to go through the whole registration process to get it.

    Someone said regulation ends in taking away our right to carry. Hyperbole and fantasy. Our history proves we will not go the route of England and remove all guns from the hands of private citizens. Gin up some more fear mongering why don't you... after all, it's all you've got.


    GUN CONTROL - What its done to the world In 1929, the Soviet Union
    established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million
    dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
    exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to
    1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded
    up and exterminated. Germany established gun control in 1938 and from
    1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to
    defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. China established
    gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political
    dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
    exterminated. Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to
    1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded
    up and exterminated. Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in
    the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

    Go ahead and fact check all of that...

    Then take a look at cali confiscating sks's that they decided all of a sudden were illegal... then look at the government and how it disarmed people that were survivors of katrina.

    Then remove your foot from your mouth.
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    From one of the horse's mouths... how does gun control work in your country?

    Is there less violence, robberies, rapes?
    I believe gun violence has gone up despite, perhaps because of, the restrictions
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    What's the gun related death toll in your country?
    Now compare that to the USA.

    Thank you.
    Apples and oranges, Britain and America have different histories and cultures. But if you look at the figures for Britain the gun violence rises with every restriction. Now there are certainly other vfactiors in play, specifically social tension and a rise increased immigration but to simply compare the US and UK is silly if you ignore the stats which relate directly to Britain. Gun violence spiked dramatically in the five years after handguns were banned, it is still quite a bit above the pre-ban levels.

    And anyway even if it hadn't that is no excuse to take away our constitution, historical rights(as set out in the 1689 bill of rights.).
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  7. #47
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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    As a former cop of many years I am absolutely opposed to gun registration. I was tickled to death when gun laws in my state changed and buyers were no longer required to get a permit to purchase. There are ways of tracking a gun without requiring an owner to report possession of his gun to the authorities. Databases already exist. While it might make some investigations flow more quickly, it's really not worth the trade off. As pointed out in this thread already, gun registration historically leads to gun confiscation (in many cases anyway).

    Knowing who it is that legally owns a gun and isn't committing crime doesn't really mean much to me in an investigation. They guys I'm worrying about don't register their guns and no law requiring them to would matter to them.

    I like the idea of my government not really knowing if I'm armed to the teeth, gives pause to tyranny.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    What's the gun related death toll in your country?
    Now compare that to the USA.

    Thank you.
    Not a valid comparison. There are many social/environmental conditions that have a criminogenic affect and influence violent crime rate. Firearms are not one of them. The adage that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is absolutely true. Guns are a tool. Just look at how many people were put to the sword. Those who choose to victimize will use the tool that is readily available to them, the tool itself doesn't drive them to victimize. It's a means to an end. If we had no guns we would still have violent crime. Just because a guy can kill ten people with a gun in the time it takes him to kill two with a knife doesn't make the case against guns. It just reaffirms that there are bad people in the world.
    *insert profound statement here*

  9. #49
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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    How is having to register the serial code and ballistic fingerprint infringing on your right?
    It is a precondition to the exercise of the right not inherent to same.
    Thus, an infringement.

    How is making sure you need to know how to use a gun infringing on your right?
    See above.

    No one's saying you can't own a gun, you just need to know what the heck you're doing with it.
    On the contrary... you're saying that I cannot own a gun until I meet some condition that is not inherent to owning a gun.
    Thus, an infringement.

    And I've always believed that we have to look at the entire amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. "
    We can't just ignore the first part of that
    This has been settled. The right is held wholly by the individual, regardless of his connection or lack of same to any militia.

  10. #50
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    Re: Man Killed While Trying to Rob Alcoholics Anonymous Meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    He said that the only thing registration has been used for is confiscation, I'm simply showing he's wrong, that its been used for other things.
    No, hes saying that it CAN lead to that. And it has.

    As I understood the law, the government was letting people sell their guns to the government voluntarily, correct me if I'm wrong.
    I believe the story points out that the guns were made illegal and their owners were required to turn them in..

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