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Thread: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

  1. #41
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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Excuse me?
    Somalis had a Government. One they chose for themselves
    They had a Islamic Government who controlled the country and had the support of the people.

    US and Ethiopia hated it and removed it for no reason other than their own selfish reasons - Allowing pirates to emerge again.
    So let the Somalis build another government. Who knows, maybe this time they'll get it right.

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    So let the Somalis build another government. Who knows, maybe this time they'll get it right.
    Yeah ... thanks to Ethiopia and US's oh-so wonderful plan, Somalia is under Sharia law when previously under the old Islamic Government, it was not and pirating has increased practically 100%.
    Another mission accomplished i see .....

    Pirating will not stop without a stable Somalia.
    Last edited by Laila; 04-11-09 at 07:16 PM.


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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Simple. Give a man something to be alert for and on the lookout against and he won't do a whole lot of things like sleeping.

    Knowing the what but not the when is a great way to mess with someone's head.
    Call them what you want, the pirates are about as far from cowardly as one can get. I doubt they will be scared into quitting such a lucrative career by the President going on tv and spouting off his mouth. Now, we and other nations may have success with actions. But speeches where we tell them to stop or else? Pointless. The only effect an Obama speech would have is forcing the US into action before they're ready, before it's been well thought out, before an adequate and intelligent plan has been drafted in order to save face and not look stupid because the Prez of the US told them "or else" and he can't have his bluff called.
    Last edited by talloulou; 04-11-09 at 07:20 PM.

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Call them what you want, the pirates are about as far from cowardly as one can get. I doubt they will be scared into quitting such a lucrative career by the President going on tv and spouting off his mouth. Now, we and other nations may have success with actions. But speeches where we tell them to stop or else? Pointless. The only effect an Obama speech would have is forcing the US into action before they're ready, before it's been well thought out, before an adequate and intelligent plan has been drafted in order to save face and not look stupid because the Prez of the US told them "or else" and he can't have his bluff called.
    Ah....I see your error now.

    Of course Dear Leader won't prevail merely by stating these things. He needs to state these things, and then he needs to back them up by force of arms. It is not a threat he needs to make, but a promise--only this one he needs to actually keep (hmmm....yeah, I do see the difficulty of Dear Leader being able to actually execute this policy).

    No, pirates will not be scared off by mere words. Mere casualties, preferably of a gruesome and gory variety, on the other hand, are likely to be somewhat more persuasive.

    The only thing that will stop pirates is force of arms. To pretend anything else will work is foolish and counter-productive.

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The only thing that will stop pirates is force of arms.
    No.
    A strong Government with the support of the public can stop piracy.

    A few bombs will not. Life is cheap in a country which has been in anarchy for over 24 years


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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Excuse me?
    Somalis had a Government. One they chose for themselves
    They had a Islamic Government who controlled the country and had the support of the people.

    US and Ethiopia hated it and removed it for no reason other than their own selfish reasons - Allowing pirates to emerge again.
    Are you talking about the Islamic Courts Union? By which democratic election were they chosen by the people? My understanding of their rise was that it was entirely a military operation - no elections at all. Correct me if I am mistaken.
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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Yeah ... thanks to Ethiopia and US's oh-so wonderful plan, Somalia is under Sharia law when previously under the old Islamic Government, it was not and pirating has increased practically 100%.
    Another mission accomplished i see .....

    Pirating will not stop without a stable Somalia.
    Piracy has been going on virtually non-stop for years. Sure, it HAS increased in recent months, but to say that the Islamic Courts UNion or anyone else has put a stop to it is like saying the Taliban put a stop to the opium trade (which it most certainly did not).
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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Reality check!

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    He needs to articulate the following:[*]Targeting/Kidnapping/Assaulting US citizens will not stand.
    In principle this "idea" is in effect. However in practise it can not be enforced in any way. American's have been held as hostages, targeted and kidnapped in many countries for years and the US did nothing under a Republican or Democratic administration. It is simply not practical to "defend" every US citizen travelling abroad in the way you expect it.

    [*]The rights of ships to freely navigate the waters off Somalia will be respected.
    It is respected by everyone except the pirates. Back to square one.

    [*]The US will respond to piracy militarily. Diplomacy is not an option.
    Respond to what and how? Nuke Somalia? Send in the troops? How realistic is that under the present US military and economic climate? You would need thousands of troops to do anything close to noticeable against these pirates. Like it or not, unless you are willing to kill everyone in villages and surrounding area, then you cant military stop the pirates.

    [*]No ransom will be paid to any pirate for any reason.
    Not up to the US government. The US government can not tell private companies of other nations what they can and can not do. However in principle I agree, but it is not realistic under the present circumstances.

    [*]Any Somali captured while engaged in an act of piracy will be executed.
    Not only against US law, but international law and human rights. We are not living in the 1700s any more.

    [*]Foreign aid to Somalia is suspended until the pirate menace is ended.
    Unrealistic and out of proportions. What would it do? It would force more and more people into acts of piracy to survive. It would piss off the people in the country and drive them into the hands of radical islamists and Al Q. It would weaken the Western backed government and push the country yet again into utter chaos (right now it is semi chaos ), where the radical islamists will regain power and turn the country into another "Taliban inspired" Islamic "paradise" backed by Osama Bin Laden and Co.
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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Piracy has been going on virtually non-stop for years. Sure, it HAS increased in recent months, but to say that the Islamic Courts UNion or anyone else has put a stop to it is like saying the Taliban put a stop to the opium trade (which it most certainly did not).
    Piracy has been going on for centuries. Somalia was not a "hot spot" until 5 or 10 years ago, but the area was used by pirates for many many decades. They came from Yemen and Somalia and even other African countries in the region. Zanzibar use to be a pirate haven after all (yes many centuries ago). Before that, places like of the coast of Nigeria, Java and Philippines were hot spots for decades during the 20th century and are still very active pirate wise.

    And the Taliban did keep the opium trade in check and kept the production way down when compared to before them and to now. Granted they kept it down by executing people and driving the fear of god into the population but they did keep it down.
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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Piracy has been going on for centuries. Somalia was not a "hot spot" until 5 or 10 years ago, but the area was used by pirates for many many decades. They came from Yemen and Somalia and even other African countries in the region. Zanzibar use to be a pirate haven after all (yes many centuries ago). Before that, places like of the coast of Nigeria, Java and Philippines were hot spots for decades during the 20th century and are still very active pirate wise.
    How is any of this at odds with anything I have said? The Strait of Melaka has been the pirate hotspot for a long time. However, even that chokepoint in global trade is nothing compared to the area between the Mozambique Channel and Gulf of Aden over the past few years.

    And the Taliban did keep the opium trade in check and kept the production way down when compared to before them and to now. Granted they kept it down by executing people and driving the fear of god into the population but they did keep it down.
    By stockpiling existing opium supplies and controlling the trade to maximize its own opium profits. Interesting how now the Taleban is using opium to fund itself. True colors?
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