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Thread: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    That would make the problem easier to handle. Privateers are pirates who operate with the sanction of a government.

    If these pirates are privateers, they are operating with the sanction of the Somali government, such as it is; that said government would endorse and encourage an ongoing threat to international shipping is justification for war, invasion, regime change, and either engaging in some major nation building or partitioning Somalia in whatever way works to establish a peaceful and stable solution.
    It may warrant that even if we cannot find evidence of Government sanction.
    The reasons for invading Afghanistan were not because the Taliban promoted Al Quedia's attacks in 9/11, but because they did not disallow them.

    It appears that we probably will not find evidence of the government condoning the privateers, but allowing them harbor in the country, and free-access.. are grounds for security forces.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Is the Obama team still mulling, or is the President of the United States gonna come out and speak out against this barbaric sh*t?
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    You guys are weird.

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by StandUpChuck View Post
    Is the Obama team still mulling, or is the President of the United States gonna come out and speak out against this barbaric sh*t?
    Still mulling....

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    It may warrant that even if we cannot find evidence of Government sanction.
    The reasons for invading Afghanistan were not because the Taliban promoted Al Quedia's attacks in 9/11, but because they did not disallow them.

    It appears that we probably will not find evidence of the government condoning the privateers, but allowing them harbor in the country, and free-access.. are grounds for security forces.
    The country has been existing in a state of relative anarchy since 1991. Holding the "government" accountable is laughable. When the area fell into anarchy the international community's response was to take advantage of the loose restrictions and lack of government and use the coast as a dumping ground for toxic waste.

    Bombing the crap out of these people and claiming their government should have controlled them when there's been no government and basic anarchy for 20 years is pretty stupid.

    We need to nation build. Which I know, folks hate. We need to support the new government, help it maintain stability so some law and order can begin to reign as well as create new means of existence for the people. Young men who can no longer survive as their ancestors did -fishing- need other options and opportunities. We need to rebuild a Somalia state. Anything short of that will be disastrous and lead to pointless bloodshed.

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by StandUpChuck View Post
    Is the Obama team still mulling, or is the President of the United States gonna come out and speak out against this barbaric sh*t?
    What the hell do you want him to say? Should he go on tv and make retarded threats? Should he just offer up some empty meaningless platitudes to appease people? Or should he just start bombing the crap out of these people?

    Personally I hope he comes out and says we need to nation build in Somalia. Continue our efforts in supporting their new government so the government becomes strong enough to start policing their own. In the meantime maintain a heavy naval presence on the horn. That's what he should say, what we should do, but also what folks don't seem to want to hear so he's probably playing his cards right by keeping quiet.

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    The country has been existing in a state of relative anarchy since 1991. Holding the "government" accountable is laughable. When the area fell into anarchy the international community's response was to take advantage of the loose restrictions and lack of government and use the coast as a dumping ground for toxic waste.

    Bombing the crap out of these people and claiming their government should have controlled them when there's been no government and basic anarchy for 20 years is pretty stupid.

    We need to nation build. Which I know, folks hate. We need to support the new government, help it maintain stability so some law and order can begin to reign as well as create new means of existence for the people. Young men who can no longer survive as their ancestors did -fishing- need other options and opportunities. We need to rebuild a Somalia state. Anything short of that will be disastrous and lead to pointless bloodshed.
    Westerners have no business rebuilding an African state, especially an Islamic one haha. We would insist Democracy, and we would see the emergence of an Islamic Theocracy and we would complain.

    We believe in State over Religion.
    They believe in Religion over State.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Well when the alternative is starving to death in dying fishing villages, relying on foreign aid for food, and feeling angry about why there's no fish and no stable government I say yeah. Their spirit is admirable. They have little options and the fact that they've been successful with this pirate business, creating boomtowns even, is rather awe inspiring. It's not as if these folks haven't appealed to the UN about their over fished waters and toxic dumping in their sees as well as a lack of any government to control what they see as "their" waters and livelihood. They could just sit around powerless with their thumbs up their collective asses relying solely on the foreign food aid. Instead they've gotten pissed, risen up, and raised holy hell on the high seas. So yes, it is a bit hard not to root for them. It is impossible for me to read about these pirates and not have some degree of awe and respect for their refusal to just roll over and play dead. Desperate peoples and desperate times call for desperate measures. Think about it. What are a young Somalian man's options? Fishing is no longer an adequate means of survival and there is virtually nothing else to do. I have little doubt were I in their place I'd either be a pirate or marry one. Piracy is the only avenue which has gotten many of those people not only a means of survival but an actual taste of the high life to boot.
    You did know the last ship was ship carrying African aid right?


    The Associated Press: Somali pirates a far cry from buccaneers of old
    Attacks in the Gulf of Aden and along Somalia's coast have risen dramatically, from 41 in 2007 to 111 in 2008, according to the International Maritime Bureau. Since January, pirates have staged at least 66 assaults and currently hold more than a dozen ships and more than 200 foreign crew members.

    According to the House memo, pirates operating off Somalia earned $30 million in ransom through the seizure of 42 vessels in 2008. Other estimates put the figure at $80 million.

    The memo cited one captured pirate as saying pirates only take 30 percent of ransoms on average $1 million to $2 million per boat.

    Twenty percent goes to group bosses, 30 percent is spent on bribing local officials, and 20 percent goes for capital investment like guns, ammunition, fuel, food, cigarettes. (Cuss said pirates were becoming more sophisticated and in the last two months have, for the first time, begun launching nighttime attacks, possibly indicating pirates have obtained night-vision goggles).
    GAROWE, Somalia (Reuters) - Yassin Dheere is a 39-year-old Somali who took to piracy five years ago and has made a fortune from the mushrooming business.

    I'm a successful Somali pirate | Top News | Reuters

    A hulk of a man, Dheere towered over his bodyguards as he spoke to Reuters in Garowe, capital of the northern Puntland province.

    Dressed in expensive-looking traditional robes, he chewed khat leaves and stroked an AK-47 rifle as he told his story, starting with his birth in a notorious pirates' haven on the coast.
    On page 3

    "If the U.N. gives approval to fight pirates on land, that will only lead to death of innocent Somalis. They cannot differentiate us from ordinary Somalis, we dress alike. Piracy will not stop unless we get a government."
    Last edited by cherokee; 04-11-09 at 06:11 PM.

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    What the hell do you want him to say? Should he go on tv and make retarded threats? Should he just offer up some empty meaningless platitudes to appease people? Or should he just start bombing the crap out of these people?

    Personally I hope he comes out and says we need to nation build in Somalia. Continue our efforts in supporting their new government so the government becomes strong enough to start policing their own. In the meantime maintain a heavy naval presence on the horn. That's what he should say, what we should do, but also what folks don't seem to want to hear so he's probably playing his cards right by keeping quiet.
    I've said it before, the President is a symbol. I don't expect him to start dropping bombs, but I do expect as a matter of public persona, the American leader to at least sit his ass in front of a camera for 30 seconds and say targetting American ships will not be tolerated. Period. He needs to lead, dammit. Sometimes all leadership has to be is just speaking to the nation and/or the world with a simple platitude. We're not a nation of p*ssies.

    eta: I actually like Hillary Clinton (it took a while, but I like her), but that video of her laughing about pirating is gross. It's not friggen funny at this point.
    Last edited by StandUpChuck; 04-11-09 at 06:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    You guys are weird.

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    FOXNews.com - Booming Pirate Economy Transforms Somali Villages - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

    And in an impoverished country where every public institution has crumbled, they have become heroes in the steamy coastal dens they operate from because they are the only real business in town.

    "The pirates depend on us, and we benefit from them," said Sahra Sheik Dahir, a shop owner in Haradhere, the nearest village to where a hijacked Saudi Arabian supertanker carrying $100 million in crude was anchored Wednesday.

    These boomtowns are all the more shocking in light of Somalia's violence and poverty: Radical Islamists control most of the country's south, meting out lashings and stonings for accused criminals. There has been no effective central government in nearly 20 years, plunging this arid African country into chaos.

    Life expectancy is just 46 years; a quarter of children die before they reach 5.

    But in northern coastal towns like Haradhere, Eyl and Bossaso, the pirate economy is thriving thanks to the money pouring in from pirate ransoms that have reached $30 million this year alone.
    In Haradhere, residents came out in droves to celebrate as the looming oil ship came into focus this week off the country's lawless coast. Businessmen started gathering cigarettes, food and cold glass bottles of orange soda, setting up small kiosks for the pirates who come to shore to re-supply almost daily.

    Dahir said she is so confident in the pirates, she instituted a layaway plan just for them.

    "They always take things without paying and we put them into the book of debts," she told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. "Later, when they get the ransom money, they pay us a lot."

    For Somalis, the simple fact that pirates offer jobs is enough to gain their esteem, even as hostages languish on ships for months. The population makes sure the pirates are well-stocked in qat, a popular narcotic leaf, and offer support from the ground even as the international community tries to quash them.
    Seems to me like the opinions of non-Pirate Somalis trumps that of anybody here.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by StandUpChuck View Post
    I've said it before, the President is a symbol. I don't expect him to start dropping bombs, but I do expect as a matter of public persona, the American leader to at least sit his ass in front of a camera for 30 seconds and say targetting American ships will not be tolerated. Period. He needs to lead, dammit. Sometimes all leadership has to be is just speaking to the nation and/or the world with a simple platitude. We're not a nation of p*ssies.

    eta: I actually like Hillary Clinton (it took a while, but I like her), but that video of her laughing about pirating is gross. It's not friggen funny at this point.
    At this rate such a statement would be laughable. They have a US ship now. Say Obama goes on Leno to address the nation and says, "This will NOT be tolerated, " and then the pirates take another ship tomorrow? He will look like a fool. The truth is they have no idea how to deal with this situation because the pirates at this point are mostly young men, many on drugs, who are simply choosing between having nothing and raiding ships for ransom. They exist in a state of lawlessness. Without law and order and some stability in the country there's nothing to do. These young men are willing to risk their lives and will continue to do so until they're given some other option or purpose for existing. We can't attack them on land because they look like every other Somalian. It is impossible to sort them out from the regular Somalians who are not pirates. We can not adequately patrol the horn because the coast is HUGE. We can not just fire away at the pirates on the seas while they hold hostages.

    Having Obama go on tv to say, "Stop it, stop it right now," would be looney.

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