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Thread: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

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    Re: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So you'd rather blow them all to hell, including the hostage, then find a peaceful solution where the pirates don't get a damn thing except to extricate themselves from the situation into which they've gotten themselves.

    Do you feel the same way when the criminals are white Americans? Do you think the FBI needs hostage negotiators at all, or does the entire premise of that career get your panties in a bunch?
    I'd prefer to extricate the hostage then blow them all to hell.

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    Re: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

    The assault ship Boxer is mentioned because it has a hospital, but it also has a large marine contingent, tanks, and giant assault transports. I'm guessing we'll see a marine landing to clean out this rat nest.

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    Re: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Isn't the more pressing problem - Is it legal for any army to enter the territorial waters of another without prior permission from the governing body of a country? [Somalia has a recognised President remember]
    I'd say in this situaiton Somalia can shove it's sovereignty. Whenever their crime and corruption becomes international crime and corruption, then they have failed at something. When that crime and corruption puts another nation-state's citizens in danger, and they are not taking any approach to end the the danger, then their wishes mean less than a single crystal of salt in the sea.
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    Re: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Killing a few pirates and a hostage for absolutely no reason is not going to have the slightest deterrent effect, as long as other pirates aren't tuned into CNN to hear about it, and as long as the US Navy doesn't have a permanent presence in the area.
    If they're pirates, that's enough reason to kill them. If the hostage can be extricated first, great.

    As for deterrent effect, display the pirate bodies prominently along the Somali coast, with the words "thou shalt not steal" written in the local dialect posted above each. Personally, I'd advocate bringing back crucifixion.

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    Re: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Isn't the more pressing problem - Is it legal for any army to enter the territorial waters of another without prior permission from the governing body of a country? [Somalia has a recognised President remember]
    Well, by that logic, why isn't Somalia's "government" stopping the pirates? Their failure to act is forcing other nations to act instead.

    In legalese, the term would likely be something similar to "exigent circumstance"--somebody has to do something. If the Somalis get offended by it....too damn bad.

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    Re: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    If they're pirates, that's enough reason to kill them. If the hostage can be extricated first, great.

    As for deterrent effect, display the pirate bodies prominently along the Somali coast, with the words "thou shalt not steal" written in the local dialect posted above each. Personally, I'd advocate bringing back crucifixion.

    I still don't think that this showmanship of how we can dismantle another person will do much to deter. I think we need a more practical approach of playing with their uncertainty. We need to make the headline "Pirate Blown Out of the Water" just another statistic...
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Well, by that logic, why isn't Somalia's "government" stopping the pirates? Their failure to act is forcing other nations to act instead.

    In legalese, the term would likely be something similar to "exigent circumstance"--somebody has to do something. If the Somalis get offended by it....too damn bad.
    Because the government is barely in control of the capital city, let alone the country side. Last I heard the government had just arrived back to the country after years of exile and months on months (if not over a year) after the religious fanatics were kicked out of power by an Ethiopian invasion.

    So the US/west is in a loose loose situation. Sure they can go in with full force, into a hostile area costing many many lives and maybe kill a few pirates, but it wont put them out of business. Only a brutal occupation can do that. What they in turn get are pissed off locals that will join forces with the "enemy of my enemy".. which is Al Q and the islamic extremists, and that is exactly what we dont want... rather have the pirates to be honest. Such action will also weaken the very very weak government in Somalia.. Now the government could ask for western assistance, but that would also weaken them considerably in the eyes of the very people that they want to trust them.. the Somalis, which in turn plays right into the hands of the religious extremists backed by Al Q.

    Now the US/west can do what they are doing now, trying to fight off the pirates at sea, in international waters. However this plays bad to especially the gun hoarding shoot first ask questions never right wing of the right wing in many western countries. It also some what strengthens the pirates grip on the local population and in fact draws more and more into the pirate game, since it is profitable. It is also a propaganda coup to the pirates as we have seen, drawing more and more to the cause.

    It is ironic that it was the islamic extremist AL Q backed government that kept the pirates down to a manageable size back in the day and since they are gone, the problem has exploded.

    The US/west are damned if they do, damned if they dont.

    And for the record.. Big Danish container ship is hard to "retake" from pirates, where as a small French yacht is a rather simple task, relatively speaking. The amount of space special forces have to cover to secure a ship of that size ... mind boggling. And there is plenty of places on a container ship where the pirates can set up kill zones and traps and in the end any time wasted means a bullet closer to a hostage head.

    And it is not the first time the French have hit back at pirates in this way and they have zero tolerance plus the legal means.. as they are one of the nations that have universal jurisdiction on things like war crimes, crimes against humanity and high seas piracy.
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    Re: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I still don't think that this showmanship of how we can dismantle another person will do much to deter.
    I'd say history proves otherwise. Marcus Crassus used that "showmanship" to deter slave revolts in twilight of the Roman Republic with sufficient success that, if memory serves, Rome itself was fairly safe until Alaric sacked the city in 410 CE. This despite a Roman Empire that depended in large part on the institution of slavery.

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    Re: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Isn't the more pressing problem - Is it legal for any army to enter the territorial waters of another without prior permission from the governing body of a country? [Somalia has a recognised President remember]
    Well, "legal" is kind of a gray area since Somalia doesn't have any government and since a lot of this stuff happens in international waters anyway. I don't remember the name of the agreement, but the UN has declared that it's OK for other nations to enter Somali territorial waters to pursue pirates. Somalia doesn't really have any government to speak of, so there is really no one to get pissed off at us for violating their sovereignty anyway.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-11-09 at 04:41 PM.
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    Re: US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    If they're pirates, that's enough reason to kill them. If the hostage can be extricated first, great.
    In other words, you're more interested in killing the pirates than in actually rescuing the hostage.

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    As for deterrent effect, display the pirate bodies prominently along the Somali coast, with the words "thou shalt not steal" written in the local dialect posted above each. Personally, I'd advocate bringing back crucifixion.
    And what about the 99.9% of the pirates who don't frequent that particular part of the coast and/or don't see the bodies before the locals remove them?
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