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Thread: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Well by the same logic then we are also a white nation, a poor nation, and swiftly becoming aan obese nation.... just curious should we be touting ourselves as such? As long as were talking about demographics.
    As we are not nor ever were a "white" nation, as our standard of living is generally higher than the rest of the world, those assertions are demonstrably and demographically false. As for obesity.....yeah, a good many Americans need to stop super-sizing the fries and hit the treadmill more often.

    Should we be saying "America is....." any of these things? One can--it would be advisable to be correct and accurate in your depiction (which eliminates the assertion of America being a "white" nation).

    Should the President of the United States be making such statements (especially the current one, who claims some expertise on the Constitution) and not distinguishing between our government and our society? Absolutely not. Broadly, America is a Christian nation, but from the start has been a nation without Christian government, and which has at the very core of its law proscribed Christian government; that is the statement the President of the United States should be making, if he wishes to fairly and accurately depict the demographic and legal reality that is America.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Demographically, America is a Christian nation.

    We do not have a "Christian" government. The First Amendment, in proscribing the power of government to regulate religion, by implication prohibits this.

    Sad that the presumptive Constitutional scholar sitting in the Oval Office is unable to make the distinction.
    I disagree. America is a nation which is full of Christians, not a "Christian Nation.". By the way, the number of Americans claiming to be Christian is on the decline. One article I read has America down to 75% Christian, a drop of 10% over the last couple of decades.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Who are you responding to?

    They wrote it that way because it was inconceivable to them that anyone could consider generic governmental support for Christian morals to fall within the description of an "establishment of religion." Society was very different back then, and a large part of the misconceptions that exist today come from trying to look at their words and actions from our modern perspective.
    Yes, society was very different then. People were packing up and leaving their homes and going to a far away land to escape government-sanctioned religion, much of which was Christianity.

    The Framers knew exactly what they were doing when they wrote the First Amendment just the way it is. I believe most of the misconception comes from modern conditioning. There are people who want the Establishment Clause to mean nothing so they slip out rhetoric to support that.

    Also, people back then were well aware of other religions, including other beliefs right here in the new land. It could not have been so inconceivable to them that other religions needed freedom also.

    As I know it, all the evidence points to a need for the Separation of Church and State and the Framers knew it. They escaped religious prosecution either themselves or saw it happening to others. Many may have been Christian, but that only strengthens the First Amendment. If these people were really so deeply Christian and yet they still wrote the First Amendment the way it is, without mention of Christianity, knowing full well that other religions existed right here with them, then they knew the value of all religious freedom, not just Christianity.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You don't speak with any authority. "American law is not based on blah blah blah, and the rest you have no clue what you're talking about. Next you'll bring out the flat-earthers thing. The American culture that has developed over 300 years is Christian. Our laws reflect that culture.
    Our laws reflect common human desire, it just so happens religion is based on the same thing.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Yes, society was very different then. People were packing up and leaving their homes and going to a far away land to escape government-sanctioned religion, much of which was Christianity.
    Actually, much as Right was saying, while much of it was Christianity it was specific sects of Christianity. Many of the first pilgrims across the sea were indeed escaping from a form of christianity....so that they could practice a different form of christianity.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Is that why the first Commandment and the First Amendment contradict each other?
    It goes so much more broader than this. Many religions are complete contradictions to our Constitution.

    Religions include rules imposed on its adherents that absolutely must be followed.

    Our Constitution is meant to limit the government in order to allow people to make their own decisions in life.

    Religion and our Constitution are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually, much as Right was saying, while much of it was Christianity it was specific sects of Christianity. Many of the first pilgrims across the sea were indeed escaping from a form of christianity....so that they could practice a different form of christianity.
    Still... Christianity.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    As we are not nor ever were a "white" nation, as our standard of living is generally higher than the rest of the world, those assertions are demonstrably and demographically false. As for obesity.....yeah, a good many Americans need to stop super-sizing the fries and hit the treadmill more often.
    Until blacks weren't given the same rights as their white counterparts(You know. All the good stuff that comes with being a citizen and not a second class citizen) then we most certainly were a nation of whites.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    ok well I seem to be confused what we are actually trying to debate here. As is the norm for many debates such as these it would appear many of us are arguing around different points and it would appear we need to actually define what we all mean by the term "Christian Nation" is it:

    1. demographic? - the majority of people residing withing the boundaries of the United states subscribe to some flavor of the Christian faith.

    2. Inherited? - The people who founded this nation were Christian and as such the US has inherited this trait.

    3. Philosophical? - the precepts of Nation were intended to succumb to Christian moral teachings

    we seem to keep talking around each other without even accurately defining what we mean by this. If we cant even determine what we mean by the term "Christian nation" how can anyone even begin to try and develop an opinion as to whether or not it was even right or wrong to say such a thing....

    Personally I don't thing the demographic argument holds as Iraq (pre-invasion) was always considered a secular state in the Middle East regardless of the majority Muslim population (albeit from different sects)

    the inheritance argument is just too absurd in my mind to place a inherited title on a nation that prides itself on the ability of its legislature to adapt it to changing times and environments and thus its evolution into something different that what it was previously

    And to the philosophical argument.... well I guess I'll be boring and revert back to the freedom of religion ieda and our claim to be tolerant to all religions and not to give special treatment or consideration to one religion over another.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    I'm confused how exactly does this explain away the apparent contradiction between the 1st amendment and the 1st commandment?

    EDIT: Or am I simply mistaken about the commandments being the foundation of "Christian values"?

    Edit 2: And since when do the Christians hold the monopoly on charity?

    Edit 3: Lol sorry too hastily typed out without much forethought... I must be getting tired.... How does the "Anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ as their personal savior is going to hell" philosophy somehow morph Freedom of religion into a christian value?
    You have made up the” contradiction” and you have made up “apparent” either due to the lack minimal logic or due reading comprehension problems. Then you keep on going around and pretend to be confused. God has promised you to punish you for entering in the contract with him and then breaking the contract. You are free not to enter in the contract and you are free to break it. This is the foundation of Christian values. Moses entered the contract on the behalf of his nation. Other nations and people are free to enter into the contract and break it. The state forcing people to enter into the contract and assuming the role of god punishing for breaking the contract – is a value of Islam. The state preventing people from entering the contract and forcing them to break the contract is a value of atheism. The state not interfering with relation between its people and God is a Christian value. What good can it ever be for God and Christianity if it forced people with mental problems and lack of minimal comprehension of basic values to enter in the contract with so many clauses? Such a contract requires some intelligence sufficient at least for understanding of the text of the contract.

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