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Thread: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

  1. #241
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by don'ttreadonme View Post
    Hmmmmm......that's interesting because I go to an evangelical church and I've never one time heard a sermon about abortion. A handful a times (over a dozen years) we have discussed "gay-rights" in terms of ordination standards and denominational business but that's it.

    I'm curious how often you actually attend these churches to witness what you're so sure is happening in there.

    Oh .... and I've been to "churches" with a leftist ideology (like a U.U. "church") and I've never seen so much blatant politicizing in a church before in my life! Right-wingers would never get away with that. (Perhaps a Catholic church with the abortion issue may rival it but that's about it.)

    eta: And you didn't answer my question. Are you a Christian?
    Yes...as I've indicated before, I am a Christian...but not "Christian".
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Yes...as I've indicated before, I am a Christian...but not "Christian".
    And the difference is......what?

    Besides your own ego, that is.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyCore View Post
    The founders weren't exactly Christian and there's nothing in the Constitution referencing Christianity so your claim about the founding principles lacks evidence. My point about murder/theft laws is they are secular and not religious based, therefore claiming them as being Christian is intellectually dishonest by omitting the fact those laws wholly exist without Christianity.
    No, whether or not these laws existed before Christianity is irrelevant. Firstly, the founders were theists, mostly of a Christian faith. Denying that is intellectually dishonest. Secondly, it is the founders mindset that is relevant, not whether or not the laws existed before Christianity. Therefore, your position, above, fails on both matters.

    Wiki is not a reliable source for the issue and the first reason is the root meaning of the term:

    theocracy:

    1622, "sacerdotal government under divine inspiration" (as that of Israel before the rise of kings), from Gk. theokratia "the rule of God" (Josephus), from theos "god" (of unknown origin, perhaps a non-I.E. word) + kratos "a rule, regime, strength" (see -cracy). Meaning "priestly or religious body wielding political and civil power" is recorded from 1825.

    Iraq most certainly fits that criteria because the Koran is their main direct source of legislation as has been shown via Article 2 of their Constitution. But we can go even further and view the evidence from the ground, beginning in 2005:

    "But in recent weeks, some civil rights leaders and social conservatives had raised concerns to the White House over language in the proposed constitution calling for Islam to be the official religion of the state. The concern is that a religion is being specifically named. They note that the drafters of the U.S. Constitution did not name Christianity as the official religion of this country, considering religious freedom a basic tenet of democracy."
    War Supporters Concerned That 'Theocracy' Will Be Final Word in Iraq Saga


    And from 2007, a report from our State Department:

    September 15, 2007:

    "Religious freedom has sharply deteriorated in Iraq over the past year because of the insurgency and violence targeting people of specific faiths, despite the U.S. military buildup intended to improve security, a State Department report said Friday ...."Many individuals from various religious groups were targeted because of their religious identity or their secular leanings," the report said.It found that members of all religions in Iraq are "victims of harassment, intimidation, kidnapping, and killings" and that "frequent sectarian violence included attacks on places of worship."

    Iraq Theocracy, Civil War and Genocide Watch


    So how I don't know how in the world it can be claimed my position has been debunked. People can split hairs about narrow definitions of "Theocracy" but the evidence from the ground leaves their position as bald and bumpy as a golf ball.
    And nothing above refutes the definition I posted. Your position is debunked because you cannot prove the correlation between the US being based on Christian ideals, and the US being a theocracy, whereas I have shown that the US being founded on Christian ideals does not equal a theocracy, by very definition. Your position has no validity.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 04-12-09 at 03:08 AM.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyCore View Post
    (Was distracted during first reply so quoted this again to finish.)

    I'm having trouble keeping up with your claims. In post 146 you quoted BW who said we live under a secular structure but are a Christian nation. Your response was to start off with "No." followed by saying we were founded on Christian principles but we are not a Christian nation. Later, in post 169 you mis-quote obama by a long shot then claim we are a Christian nation by a landslide. So in addition to what appears confusing (unless I quoted the wrong poster) about that you move your claim of being "founded on Christian principles" to simply saying our nation was influenced by Christian theology. I see those two as completely different and agree with the latter.
    You are confusing two different "Captains". I, CaptainCourtesy, made the post at 146, but Captain American made the post at 169. No wonder this sequence seemed confusing.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #245
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Tomm. in this so called X-ian nation? Mass X-ians will be celebrating another holiday that they stole from the Pagans.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by aquapub View Post
    -Almost 90% of Americans consider themselves Christian.

    -We celebrate Christmas, while Jewish, Islamic, and BS, made up holidays like Kwanzaa are tolerated as minority holidays.

    -We don't allow polygamy...something Islam embraces, but Christianity opposes.

    -We were un-mistakably founded by Anglo-Saxon Christians.

    -Our laws derive directly from Judeo-Christian teachings. Several of the ratifying states had official state religions.

    -The left's alleged poster boy for their "Church and State" myth, Thomas Jefferson, proposed for our national seal an image of Moses parting the Red Sea, under the inscription, "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God."

    It goes on and on. The only people who don't acknowledge that this is a Christian nation are people like Obama, who hate it and want to change everything about it.
    Your final statement in this is the wrong conclusion from the previous ones. All you did was prove that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. That in no way correlates to it being a Christian nation. Sorry. You're wrong.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #247
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, whether or not these laws existed before Christianity is irrelevant. Firstly, the founders were theists, mostly of a Christian faith. Denying that is intellectually dishonest. Secondly, it is the founders mindset that is relevant, not whether or not the laws existed before Christianity. Therefore, your position, above, fails on both matters.

    And nothing above refutes the definition I posted. Your position is debunked because you cannot prove the correlation between the US being based on Christian ideals, and the US being a theocracy, whereas I have shown that the US being founded on Christian ideals does not equal a theocracy, by very definition. Your position has no validity.
    "I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

    Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)


    "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." -

    Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

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    "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
    all over the earth." -

    Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)
    Even somebody who knows only the 10 commandments of Christianity and then the words of the Founding Fathers would come to two one of two conclusions. They were cafeteria Christians who ignored even the most important parts of Christianity(like for example the 1st commandment) or they had split personality disorders. Which Christian 'ideals' are these people are talking about? Freedom of religion? Freedom of speech? Which 'ideals' upon which our country was founded on is 'Christian' in nature? Why would they ignore the very basic tenets of Christianity while writing the constitution? We can debate all we want about what they might have been thinking but at the end of the day they wrote the one piece of information that destroys any assertion that we're a 'Christian nation'(1st amendment) by ignoring the most basic of Christian tenets(1st commandment).
    Last edited by Hatuey; 04-12-09 at 01:32 PM.
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  8. #248
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Even somebody who knows only the 10 commandments of Christianity and then the words of the Founding Fathers would come to two one of two conclusions. They were cafeteria Christians who ignored even the most important parts of Christianity(like for example the 1st commandment) or they had split personality disorders. Which Christian 'ideals' are these people are talking about? Freedom of religion? Freedom of speech? Which 'ideals' upon which our country was founded on is 'Christian' in nature? Why would they ignore the very basic tenets of Christianity while writing the constitution? We can debate all we want about what they might have been thinking but at the end of the day they wrote the one piece of information that destroys any assertion that we're a 'Christian nation'(1st amendment) by ignoring the most basic of Christian tenets(1st commandment).
    I think it was established that a "Christian Theocracy" is un-Christian in and of itself. I think the sincerest form of Christian governance (or lack thereof) is [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism"]Christian Anarchism.[/ame]
    Last edited by BulletWounD; 04-12-09 at 01:39 PM.

  9. #249
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    I think it was established that a "Christian Theocracy" is un-Christian in and of itself.
    Really? If that was what I was addressing you'd have a point :

    I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

    .....just sayin'. 'Freedom of Religion' is not a Christian principle. So what are these Christian principles that our country was founded on?
    Last edited by Hatuey; 04-12-09 at 01:46 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Really? If that was what I was addressing you'd have a point :

    I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

    .....just sayin'. 'Freedom of Religion' is not a Christian principle. So what are these Christian principles that our country was founded on?
    Actually, freedom of religion is a Christian principle. Christ and his disciples did not go around converting people by the sword.

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