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Thread: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

  1. #181
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    No this is not a Christian nation. This is a nation in which the majority of the populace claims Christianity as a religion. There is a difference.
    As Laila has already stated, do not get confused between a Christian minority state and a christian country. They are two completely different things. For example, Saudi Arabia is a muslim country, because it does not practice secularism and enforces Sharia law. Albania, or Bosnia, or in this case Turkey as an example does not, and practices secularism, and therefore cannot be pinned a muslim state, but one with a muslim majority populace, like the UK, US, France etc cannot be, and should not be pinned as a christian country.
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You are missing the point and thinking in only black and white. This is also a non-sequitur. There are far more Judeo-Christian principles than the one that you mention, and using these principles does not lead to the conclusion you are presenting.

    Iam not missing the point but explaining the claim by showing one cannot reference Christian principles exclusive from theology. A theocracy is formed by referencing a divine being as a basis for it's laws. That is why iraq is a self-defined theocracy because it states point blank in their Constitution islam is the main source of legislation. There is nothing in our Constitution suggesting the same about Christianity.

    However, applications of the concepts of theocracies needs no examination to prove the claim wrong. We merely need to look at what gets labeled as a Christian principle.

    Illegal to:

    Murder: pre-dates Christianity

    Theft: pre-dates Christianity


    If a principle within Christianity is found in any other system, secular or religious, it cannot be claimed as a "Christian" principle in regards to this discussion. The onus is on you to demonstrate Christian principals that cannot be sourced from other systems.

  3. #183
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyCore View Post
    Iam not missing the point but explaining the claim by showing one cannot reference Christian principles exclusive from theology. A theocracy is formed by referencing a divine being as a basis for it's laws. That is why iraq is a self-defined theocracy because it states point blank in their Constitution islam is the main source of legislation. There is nothing in our Constitution suggesting the same about Christianity.

    However, applications of the concepts of theocracies needs no examination to prove the claim wrong. We merely need to look at what gets labeled as a Christian principle.

    Illegal to:

    Murder: pre-dates Christianity

    Theft: pre-dates Christianity


    If a principle within Christianity is found in any other system, secular or religious, it cannot be claimed as a "Christian" principle in regards to this discussion. The onus is on you to demonstrate Christian principals that cannot be sourced from other systems.
    No, you are still missing the point. It is irrelevant to whether any of these issues pre-dated Christianity. The mindset of the founding fathers is what is relevant, and these principles were used based on their belief system, which was Judeo-Christian.

    And your definition of a theocracy is faulty. Pay attention to the things I place in bold:

    Theocracy is a form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the state's supreme civil ruler, or in a broader sense, a form of government in which a state is governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. For believers, theocracy is a form of government in which divine power governs an earthly human state, either in a personal incarnation or, more often, via religious institutional representatives (i.e., a church), replacing or dominating civil government.Theocratic governments enact theonomic laws.
    Theocracy should be distinguished from other secular forms of government that have a state religion, or are merely influenced by theological or moral concepts, and monarchies held "By the Grace of God".


    Theocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Here is the statement that you must refute, taken from the above definition: The US is not a theocracy, but is meerly influenced by theological (Judeo-Christian) concepts.

    Good luck. Since your definition is faulty and been proven inaccurate, therefore, making your premise a non-sequitur, your position has now been thoroughly debunked.
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, you are still missing the point. It is irrelevant to whether any of these issues pre-dated Christianity. The mindset of the founding fathers is what is relevant, and these principles were used based on their belief system, which was Judeo-Christian.
    The founders weren't exactly Christian and there's nothing in the Constitution referencing Christianity so your claim about the founding principles lacks evidence. My point about murder/theft laws is they are secular and not religious based, therefore claiming them as being Christian is intellectually dishonest by omitting the fact those laws wholly exist without Christianity.


    And your definition of a theocracy is faulty. Pay attention to the things I place in bold:



    Here is the statement that you must refute, taken from the above definition: The US is not a theocracy, but is meerly influenced by theological (Judeo-Christian) concepts.

    Good luck. Since your definition is faulty and been proven inaccurate, therefore, making your premise a non-sequitur, your position has now been thoroughly debunked.

    Wiki is not a reliable source for the issue and the first reason is the root meaning of the term:

    theocracy:

    1622, "sacerdotal government under divine inspiration" (as that of Israel before the rise of kings), from Gk. theokratia "the rule of God" (Josephus), from theos "god" (of unknown origin, perhaps a non-I.E. word) + kratos "a rule, regime, strength" (see -cracy). Meaning "priestly or religious body wielding political and civil power" is recorded from 1825.

    Iraq most certainly fits that criteria because the Koran is their main direct source of legislation as has been shown via Article 2 of their Constitution. But we can go even further and view the evidence from the ground, beginning in 2005:

    "But in recent weeks, some civil rights leaders and social conservatives had raised concerns to the White House over language in the proposed constitution calling for Islam to be the official religion of the state. The concern is that a religion is being specifically named. They note that the drafters of the U.S. Constitution did not name Christianity as the official religion of this country, considering religious freedom a basic tenet of democracy."
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082600548.html


    And from 2007, a report from our State Department:

    September 15, 2007:

    "Religious freedom has sharply deteriorated in Iraq over the past year because of the insurgency and violence targeting people of specific faiths, despite the U.S. military buildup intended to improve security, a State Department report said Friday ...."Many individuals from various religious groups were targeted because of their religious identity or their secular leanings," the report said.It found that members of all religions in Iraq are "victims of harassment, intimidation, kidnapping, and killings" and that "frequent sectarian violence included attacks on places of worship."

    http://www.google.com/gwt/n?u=http%3...e=off&source=m


    So how I don't know how in the world it can be claimed my position has been debunked. People can split hairs about narrow definitions of "Theocracy" but the evidence from the ground leaves their position as bald and bumpy as a golf ball.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyCore View Post
    The founders weren't exactly Christian and there's nothing in the Constitution referencing Christianity so your claim about the founding principles lacks evidence. My point about murder/theft laws is they are secular and not religious based, therefore claiming them as being Christian is intellectually dishonest by omitting the fact those laws wholly exist without Christianity.





    Wiki is not a reliable source for the issue and the first reason is the root meaning of the term:

    theocracy:

    1622, "sacerdotal government under divine inspiration" (as that of Israel before the rise of kings), from Gk. theokratia "the rule of God" (Josephus), from theos "god" (of unknown origin, perhaps a non-I.E. word) + kratos "a rule, regime, strength" (see -cracy). Meaning "priestly or religious body wielding political and civil power" is recorded from 1825.

    Iraq most certainly fits that criteria because the Koran is their main direct source of legislation as has been shown via Article 2 of their Constitution. But we can go even further and view the evidence from the ground, beginning in 2005:

    "But in recent weeks, some civil rights leaders and social conservatives had raised concerns to the White House over language in the proposed constitution calling for Islam to be the official religion of the state. The concern is that a religion is being specifically named. They note that the drafters of the U.S. Constitution did not name Christianity as the official religion of this country, considering religious freedom a basic tenet of democracy."
    War Supporters Concerned That 'Theocracy' Will Be Final Word in Iraq Saga


    And from 2007, a report from our State Department:

    September 15, 2007:

    "Religious freedom has sharply deteriorated in Iraq over the past year because of the insurgency and violence targeting people of specific faiths, despite the U.S. military buildup intended to improve security, a State Department report said Friday ...."Many individuals from various religious groups were targeted because of their religious identity or their secular leanings," the report said.It found that members of all religions in Iraq are "victims of harassment, intimidation, kidnapping, and killings" and that "frequent sectarian violence included attacks on places of worship."

    Iraq Theocracy, Civil War and Genocide Watch


    So how I don't know how in the world it can be claimed my position has been debunked. People can split hairs about narrow definitions of "Theocracy" but the evidence from the ground leaves their position as bald and bumpy as a golf ball.
    All that crap about the founders not being christian is a lot of leftwing gobbldigook. They were religious as were most all people of the time. That's doesn't mean they believe everyone should worship the same. Trying to associate the lack of a reference to Christianity to a lack of Christian value in the founding of this nation, is ridiculous and illogical.
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, you are still missing the point. It is irrelevant to whether any of these issues pre-dated Christianity. The mindset of the founding fathers is what is relevant, and these principles were used based on their belief system, which was Judeo-Christian.

    And your definition of a theocracy is faulty. Pay attention to the things I place in bold:



    Here is the statement that you must refute, taken from the above definition: The US is not a theocracy, but is meerly influenced by theological (Judeo-Christian) concepts.

    Good luck. Since your definition is faulty and been proven inaccurate, therefore, making your premise a non-sequitur, your position has now been thoroughly debunked.

    (Was distracted during first reply so quoted this again to finish.)

    I'm having trouble keeping up with your claims. In post 146 you quoted BW who said we live under a secular structure but are a Christian nation. Your response was to start off with "No." followed by saying we were founded on Christian principles but we are not a Christian nation. Later, in post 169 you mis-quote obama by a long shot then claim we are a Christian nation by a landslide. So in addition to what appears confusing (unless I quoted the wrong poster) about that you move your claim of being "founded on Christian principles" to simply saying our nation was influenced by Christian theology. I see those two as completely different and agree with the latter.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I agree that, governmentally, we are not, and should not be categorized as "any kind of a religion nation."

    I speak in terms of the nation being the people it's made up of rather than the government. Thus the confusion. My bad.

    Sure, you got your Islamic mosque here, and your synagogue there, and your buddist (whatever they call their temples) and wiccan covens here and there. But everywhere I have lived, and visited from coast to coast, those religious institutions are, if not an anomaly (sp?,) at minimum an exception to the rule. Meanwhile, there are countless christian churches on nearly every corner.

    That's what I mean when I say we are a christian nation. Hope I cleared that up.
    This is because this is a capitalist nation.

    And Church is more of a business than a place of worship here in America.

    Thats why there is a church on nearly every corner, just like your local McDonalds.
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post

    Thats why there is a church on nearly every corner, just like your local McDonalds.
    Or it could mean that we're primarily a Christian nation. Just sayin' ...
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    The only people in this country that would be so presumptuous and egocentric to declare the USA a "Christian Nation" are the right-wing fundamentalists who's agenda it is to MAKE this Country a "Christian Nation".

    Most Christian (not "Christian") people that I know consider America to be a land of religious freedom and multi-diverse in the choice of those religions.

    Obama was 100% correct when he said that We do not consider ourselves to be a "Christian" country.
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    All that crap about the founders not being christian is a lot of leftwing gobbldigook. They were religious as were most all people of the time. That's doesn't mean they believe everyone should worship the same. Trying to associate the lack of a reference to Christianity to a lack of Christian value in the founding of this nation, is ridiculous and illogical.
    Most "Christians" I know don't have a clue as to what true Christian values are.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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