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Thread: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    If software is from God, how do you explain Windows Vista?

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man]Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern:
    5. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

    God told me beforehand- when Vista was still in work – ‘Do whatever you want, upgrade memory, video card, pay extra but stay with XP, Vista is for atheists to suffer.’ All Christians know that, God knows whom to warn in time. You are in the wrong club, man; you pay too much of fee without getting anything back. I understand you run Vista, don’t you? Tell me about your suffering, please. In all details, please.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    When did prayer in school begin? When did prayer in school end? How many years between the two? Divide this number into the total number of years we've been around. Is the final percentage more than 50%?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Did I say that or are you pulling this out of your butt?

    Here:

    "Regardless of whether America is or is not a "Christian nation," a lot of people do consider America a "Christian nation" with principles fully in line with Christianity. Obama would have done much better if he had said "I do not consider the U.S. a Christian nation." He cannot speak for all the members of the government, let alone all the people of America."


    Who are these people that say that and how can it be claimed we fully line up with Christian principles?


    Like I said, war is necessary to defend our country from tyrants who will destroy our way of life. Until that changes, we will need to fight.

    That's an opinion but it's the exact opposite of what Christ taught so while some may claim War is necessary they cannot claim it's a Christian principle. Especially when the founder of Christianity taught the exact opposite.

    Moreover, that still didn't address my post. I pointed out how we attack nations that never attacked us but you tried to twist that into the doctrine of War.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    The etymology of a word is the history of that word. It is the evolution of that word.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone
    Laila called it The belief . I called it the concept. Neither belief nor Concept are a word. When instead of addressing concept you address the word, that clearly proves that you are spinning into an intellectual dishonesty. You are not even wrong, you are intellectualy dishonesty. Concept is not a word, instead of addressing concept you address the word, which proves that you are spinning into an intellectual dishonesty. Picking a source – like dictionary, - which has to be void of historical details and perspective, because it is not the task of dictionary to provide historical details or perspective clearly demonstrates your intellectual dishonesty. But please – pay attention to the bolded red. From Latin
    Online Etymology Dictionary secular
    c.1290, "living in the world, not belonging to a religious order," also "belonging to the state," from O.Fr. seculer, from L.L. sæcularis "worldly, secular,"

    Exactly as I was stating, but with no historical perspective.
    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    The Torah was written in Ancient Hebrew. The New Testament was written first in Greek then translated to Latin--which language, by the way, predates the birth of Jesus of Nazareth by at least 500 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone
    But please – pay attention to the bolded red. From Latin. The church teachings were written in Latin, then each language has translated them.
    Bolded red is your own. You own it, not me.
    Please point me to Greek in the etymology of the discussed concept or even the word secular. Online Etymology Dictionary
    ‘’The church teachings’’ does not mean NT both in the text and in the context.
    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    Secular distinguishes temporal from ecclesiastical. It is not intrinsic to any church, any creed, nor any system of belief. Religious authorities are ecclesiastical, political authorities are secular--regardless of the religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone
    Secular is Svetsky in Russian (translated from both Greek and Latin in the same way) , Anglo-French seculer Welsh hoedl - it is in the same way referring to activities outside the Church, activities which are not regulated by the Bible, are not belonging to the affairs of the Church, which are not spiritual, which are worldly

    Online Etymology Dictionary secular, "living in the world, not belonging to a religious order," from L.L. sæcularis "worldly, secular,".

    We are talking not about is, but about origination of the concept of secularity separating the Church from the King or from the Congress or from another worldly entity.

    The word is traced to 1290, coming from Latin - approximately at the same time it came to use into Russian from Greek. Approximately at the same time we can trace or have evidence of Christian theological texts, both in Latin and Greek, because there are very few preserved texts written before that period. In all 4 languages it is used for separation of the Church and worldly businesses. The necessity of such a separation lays in the NT. The history of Christianity records the struggle with understanding of the concept of the separation of the Church and the state, it records enacting of the concept in Magna Carte. I gave reference to More as an example of Christians laying lives for the separation. It is all documented. The concept of secularity was born within Christianity, the word secular as worldly and not belonging to the Church regulations came from Christian writings, the concept was developed by Christian who fought for the separation, it was enacted in a legal document (Magna Carte) by efforts of the Christian church, it came to the 1st Amendment written by Christians, - while - at the same time - no other religion or system of beliefs thought about it or fought for it or was putting it in legal documents.


    No other system of beliefs can provide such a documentation, moreover both teaching and practice of Islam and teachings and practice of atheism have been calling for unification of the state and religion. You wouldn’t find an atheist fighting for separation of atheism and the state. Turkey had to loose 2 million people before the founding father of the modern Turkey Mustafa Kemal went into the fight, and he was an exclusion from the Muslim order. Obama betrayed him too.

    Atheists always point about the danger of a theocratic Christian state. Why do they do that? Because they wouldn’t be able to point to existence of any theocratic Christian state in reality, but everyone can point to existence of theocratic atheistic states and theocratic Muslim states. Atheists pretend to be fighting against Christian theocracy (unification of the state and the Christian Church) when we have no example of Christian theocracy in reality. Thus it is clear that in reality atheists fight for establishing another atheistic theocracy (unification of the state and atheism) and we have an abundant amount of examples of atheistic theocracy (unification of the state and atheism) existing in reality.

    These are facts, this is the reality. And your posts, as well as posts of other atheists prove again and again that facts, reality and minimal rational are absolutely foreign to your beliefs and actions. No facts, no reality will make a dent in beliefs of atheists, - because such beliefs are not based on facts, reality or rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    Paul did address government. Romans 13:1-7.
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone
    4. Paul did not ever mentioned organization of a state or government, nor he demanded to follow Christianity while using toilet seats or writing a car driver’s manual.
    The key word – organization, making.
    Understanding Romans 13:1-7
    All you post now is nothing more than going into circles with a bunch of strawmen, you misrepresent and twist my words and all I have to do is repost my original wards to show how you twist and misrepresent them. It is a typical tactic of atheists and they will never get exhausted in their avoidance of reality, because atheism itself is avoidance of reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    I am not meek. .
    You brought it up, not me:
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by celticlord
    I need read no more than the Sermon on the Mount to marvel at the impiety of your intolerance and narrowmindness. (That whole bit about "blessed are the meek....") .
    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    I am also not a Christian. .
    I never suggested you were. Your posts demonstrate that you obviously lack required rational and intellectual honesty.
    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    I am, however, in most regards, a tolerant man, and will countenance a great many things. I do not countenance hatred; .
    I wouldn’t figure out either you are tolerant or you do not countenance… Your words are irrational. Your certainly do not countenance facts, reality and rational that do not fit your blind beliefs. It is typical for atheists.
    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    your words reek of hatred. I reject your words; I oppose them, and I oppose you. That is the order of things.
    I am quoting these words of yours as another proof that your words reek hatred, and a very blind hatred.


    Where atheists can see hatred in the quote you are replying to:
    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by justone
    Using the Sermon to insult an opponent in a debate is quite a perversion, the same perversion as when you find yourself meek while addressing me with ‘’impiety of your intolerance and narrowmindness’’; there is no meekness is in your words, but a demonstration of a reality comprehension problem. If you wish to be blessed as a meek you don’t start from throwing insults or what you think are insults. I am intolerant, JC was intolerant, too; it is not like he said ‘’blessed be the murderers, thieves and child molesters’’.
    I wouldn’t know. Where do you see hatred in these quote?


    What words quoted by you do you oppose and why? - I wouldn’t know and you wouldn’t say, - because you hatred have no rational behind it.
    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    My message: Hatred is wrong; you are wrong. Set aside your hatred, then we may all rejoice.
    I prefer the message of JS. Your message is not connected to any reality and thus it is completely irrational, I am not even mentioning how grim it is.

    Who did bring the Sermon into discussion without any merits to do so but just with an intent of a personal attack? Who is now withdrawing the Sermon and substituting it with his own message without any merits to do so but only with the intent of a personal attack?
    Atheists do such spins all the time. You did.
    Last edited by justone; 04-08-09 at 10:24 AM.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    I understand you run Vista, don’t you? Tell me about your suffering, please. In all details, please.
    Not much suffering to tell. I run Linux.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    If some of you are going to push this new age moronic BS that the Founding Fathers did not base their decisions and thus the foundations of this society in Judeo-Christian belief then make the Founding Fathers Aliens!...and the US based on Satanism.

    The line is so ignorance based and so lacking of either common sense or historical backing that its pathetic that some of you buy into it. Whats worse though is the "teachers" who peddle this inane BS.

    The entire routine is simply a construct anyway. Simply part of the overall "lets bash Christians because we're chickens" garbage.

    Those who get pissed off over the simple fact that just because christians built it (the constitution) doesn't make it 'CHRISTIAN' without any other evidence.

    There is nothing to state that the constitution and bill of rights are any evidence of the founders building our constitution based upon christian values.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jovial One View Post
    And people who swear that they preach God's love and Christ's mercy also say AIDS is God's punishment for immorality. Because that's what a kind and loving God would do. Right?
    Personally, I think it's gods way of saying "dont **** monkeys, idiots."

    either that or a naturally occurring viral mutation.

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    When did prayer in school begin? When did prayer in school end? How many years between the two? Divide this number into the total number of years we've been around. Is the final percentage more than 50%?
    You act as if "prayer in school" is this monolithic entity that can be switched on and off and observed easily. When it occurred depends on the state and individual school. I'm not aware of anyone who has good figures on this.
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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Philippe Starck thinks deep on design | Video on TED.com

    Don't agree with Starck on all he says but it is entertaining nonetheless.

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    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    "We" is relative. I could gather 3 or 4 of my friends and boldly state that "We" like beer. And I would be telling the truth (even though we prefer Jack and Coke.)

    Now, maybe President Obama, in his circle of friends may speak truthfully when he says that "We" do not consider ourselves a christian nation.

    But he isn't speaking for my "we." The people I know, in my US of A, most certainly, by a landslide, consider us to be, in fact, a christian nation.

    That speaks volumns about the people in my world and also about the people in Obama's.

    Sure, you got your freedom of religion. And long may she live. But, with numbers too big to ignore, this is a christian nation.

    But don't shoot me. I ain't even religious. I'm just calling it like I see it. We can pussy-foot around it and re-phrase it to sound more politically correct if it would make anyone feel better. I dont mind.

    But it is what it is and I ain't one to believe it's raining outside when I can clearly see that someone is peeing on my head.

    Maybe I need to get out more. I dunno.
    Last edited by Captain America; 04-08-09 at 06:10 PM.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    If the process of building the computer and the decisions on how to design it were shaped by their religious beliefs, then yea, I'd say you could call it a "Christian computer."
    OK.

    So what Christian ideals or Christ-like decisions can be traced to the content of the Constitution?

    I don't recall any government building strategy laid out in any scripture. Moreover, I don't recall any Christian leader/scholar/prophet with any such notions either.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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