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Thread: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This is one of my issues with Libertarians of recent years. They try to make out that the Founders are some kind of deities; omniscient being that know all of everything forever and ever. They try and judge what the thought process was 200+ years ago based on their thought processes now and on the modern day, seemingly because somehow the Founders were so singularly intelligent that unlike any group of people alive they were able to know how things would be two centuries later.

    The Founders were incredibly intelligent people, and great thinkers, but I think we actually do them a disservice when so many people treat them as if they are some sort of gods..
    I have difficulties to find Libertarians ( and I am an anti-Libertarian) or any reasonable person who treats the FF as some sort of gods. Atheists usually look for gods and make idols, but Libertarians are not always atheists, and they do not always lack reason . it seems like you are making a strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    By saying "we're a Christian nation" must automatically mean we're a bunch of zealots.
    It does automatically mean that for Muslims and atheists, - otherwise what is the necessety to make the statement that we are not a Christian nation except for necessety to calm down muslims and atheists?
    Last edited by justone; 04-07-09 at 01:41 PM.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila
    The United States is not a Christian nation. It is one built on secular beliefs. There is a church and state separation.
    Don't mistake a country with a christian majority to mean it IS a christian country.

    I'm tuning into FOX. I want to see the reaction, i'm almost breathless to see how they twist it. .

    Secular belief is a Christian belief. Both the word Secular and the belief in secularity are products of Christianity. This is a historical fact. Neither atheists nor Muslims have produced such a belief, such a concept. Neither atheists nor Muslims in the cores of their beliefs have been capable of producing such a concept. For both atheists and Muslims domination of their beliefs in each and every aspect of human activities is the goal of their activity. They cannot even use a toilet seat without devoting their conquest of the seat to their religious beliefs.

    The statement The United States is not a Christian nation is just a reciting of the Muslim/atheist’s Tripoli treatment interpretation. The US used exactly the same wording according to the Muslim/atheist’s Tripoli treatment interpretation. Soon after that the USMC was tearing apart Muslim sea pirates, the ones who were assured - according to atheistic beliefs - that the US was not a Christian nation, the ones whose piracy have been defended by the “peaceful” Muslim of DP Laila with such a militant rage.

    “History repeats itself twice- the first time as a tragedy, the second time as a farce”. Of course, Obama is totally blank of knowing or understanding any historical concept or any concept. He is a total farce. So we have to remove the real historical context from his statement because it has never entered his mind, - then we have to come to the real concept of his words, which is - ‘look I am not a Christian, therefore…’. Sure, Hussein Obama, you aren’t. You are not representing American concepts and beliefs, neither Christians nor secular ones (originated from Christianity). The same statement has been posted by atheists everywhere in the US, including DP, - “look, I am not a Christian, therefore….”

    Turkey or any other country is as good as it accepts the concept of secularism, the concept which is based on the Bible, Christian theology and Christian history. Turkey, as it still looks to me, is held back by its bloody Muslim history, - resisting to the Christian concept of secularity of the government. I, as Christian, wouldn’t even know why Obam has to state that The United States is not a Christian nation if Turkey is not an Islamic nation. Atheists have to explain me the absurd of his statement and the necessity of it. Atheists always make absurd statements. Is Turkey an Islamic, an anti-Christian nation? Why does Obam feel like he is forced to betray the history and tradition of the US and the vast majority of Americans, and to say, - ‘don’t think bad about us, we are not Christians’? Did he have to – under what circumstances? Only because Muslims who do not mind and promote Islamic states see the concept of Christianity as a threat for them, - obam has to clarify that we as a nation do not mind Islamic states and we, Christians denounce the Christian concept of secularity for the sake of Islamic concepts? No, Mr. President, we don’t. As his spiritual mentor has been spitting in the face of Christianity and America, now the President of my country spits in my face and betrays other Christians, including the ones who founded this country and gave it the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. The ones who acted on the base of their Christian beliefs as it was and is required from Christians. Atheists keep on imposing the absurd notion that those Christians gathered together and decided – ‘let’s forget that that we are Christians and let’s step away from Christian beliefs and let’s put some limits on Christianity, some really good limits so then we can always say like Peter that we don’t know that man”.

    As the President despises me for clinging to my guns and religion, as he, pressured by Islam which promotes formation of Islamic nations and demands denunciation of Christianity from non-Islamic nations, announces that he does not know me, so I officially call for his impeachment; I don’t know him neither.

    The concept of non-interference of the government with any affairs of the Church, of a wall protecting the Church is a solely Christian concept. Those were not Muslims or atheists or Hindus who fought for centuries (even among themselves) to make the 1st amendment to happen, who sacrificed their lives [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_More]Thomas More - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] who went through physical and intellectual struggle to establish this concept in a formation of a state.

    Now atheists led by obama are to destroy the very foundation of this country, the concept of spritual freedom based on Christianity; following their despise of natural freedoms they are always ready to bow and bend for demands and concepts of Islam and cannibalism.




    P.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This is another example of why you weren't suposed to vote for Obama.
    Atheists are strong by their ability to organize and act uniformly, - and this is another warning for those weak Christians who have been skipping Church services and distancing their individualities and intellectualism from the support of the Church. If one accepts Christian values, including the secular government, one has to accept the order of JC to be a part of the Church, to support the Church of JC. The support goes both ways. Individually we are not to withstand the forces which are set to remove our American freedoms.
    Last edited by justone; 04-07-09 at 01:37 PM.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    With all the crap happening in the world how is it this innocuous and pro-American statement by Obama is an issue? Is this anything like during the campaign it was said he shouldn't be Prez because his local video store had a record of him returning dvd rentals late and never took the time to rewind them?

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    Now atheists led by obama are to destroy the very foundation of this country, the concept of spritual freedom based on Christianity; following their despise of natural freedoms they are always ready to bow and bend for demands and concepts of Islam and cannibalism.
    I am failing to see how this country was founded on spiritual freedom based on Christianity. It seems more likely that it is based on religious neutrality given the First Amendment. If it is true, that Christianity was the foundation, it would seem logical that that would have been part of the document that founded us.

    I am also failing to see the connection to anything here related to cannibalism. Could you elaborate more on that?

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post
    I have difficulties to find Libertarians ( and I am an anti-Libertarian) or any reasonable person who treats the FF as some sort of gods. Atheists usually look for gods and make idols, but Libertarians are not always atheists, and they do not always lack reason . it seems like you are making a strawman.
    I'm making an observation, not a strawman. Its a stated opinion based on the attitude exuded by numerous Libertarians on this forum and elsewhere in regards to the seeming omniscience that they seem to consiously or unconsiously attach to the founding fathers.

    If you disagree, so be it. This is the distinct attitude they give off to myself however.

    It does automatically mean that for Muslims and atheists, - otherwise what is the necessety to make the statement that we are not a Christian nation except for necessety to calm down muslims and atheists?
    No, they may THINK that, that doesn't mean that. See, words have meanings. Zealot has a specific meaning. Stating that "This is a Christian Nation" does not mean "its a nation of Zealots". It just doesn't. Ignorant people or bigoted people or prejudice people that think "religious person = zealot" can THINK that, but by the definition of what a Zealot is it does not mean it.

    Saying we're a Christian Nation and basing that statement off the fact that many of the beliefs and many traditions of this nation, not just by the founders in government but by the first citizens of this country, were founded in Christian belief and due to the fact that the majority of the country identifies itself as Christian is one thing that can be said and legitimately debated.

    Saying we're a Nation of Christian Zealots would mean that the majority of this nation are excessively zealous and fanatical in their following of Christianity, which simply is not factually correct.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    I am failing to see how this country was founded on spiritual freedom based on Christianity. It seems more likely that it is based on religious neutrality given the First Amendment. If it is true, that Christianity was the foundation, it would seem logical that that would have been part of the document that founded us.
    Absolutely not. What you're saying is that its impossible for people to found something based on the ideals, principles, traditions, and morals that they have in large part due to their religion and the religion of those that tended to their upringing yet at the same time believe that government, while influenced by these things, should not specifically force the participation of any particular religion upon its population.

    Say I was raised growing up being told to respect my fellow man, due unto others as I'd wish to do unto myself, to not kill, to not steal, to not covet thy neighbors wife, to be charitable, to be chaste, etc. And, say I was raised this way due to the religious beliefs of those raising me. Then, later in life, I help establish government or live in a society where I push for those ideals to be made into law because that's what I believe in and think is right, but yet believe that the government should not tell people "You must go to chuch!" or "You must pray to [x] religion". Would that not be imparting be me imparting my foundation of religious belief into the government, while simulatenously striving for freedom to determine ones own religious practices?

    How is that apparently not possible for you?

    It doesn't seem logical at all to me. Based on the time that the founding was happened and that many of the people that were first citizens were from places that had mandatory state religions, I can CLEARLY see how its logical that the morals and views that were imparted to them due to their religious upbringing would find its way into the traditions and laws of this country while at the same time they would believe it was important that people could practice their own religions without interference or determination of what that religion is by the government.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Absolutely not. What you're saying is that its impossible for people to found something based on the ideals, principles, traditions, and morals that they have in large part due to their religion and the religion of those that tended to their upringing yet at the same time believe that government, while influenced by these things, should not specifically force the participation of any particular religion upon its population.

    Say I was raised growing up being told to respect my fellow man, due unto others as I'd wish to do unto myself, to not kill, to not steal, to not covet thy neighbors wife, to be charitable, to be chaste, etc. And, say I was raised this way due to the religious beliefs of those raising me. Then, later in life, I help establish government or live in a society where I push for those ideals to be made into law because that's what I believe in and think is right, but yet believe that the government should not tell people "You must go to chuch!" or "You must pray to [x] religion". Would that not be imparting be me imparting my foundation of religious belief into the government, while simulatenously striving for freedom to determine ones own religious practices?

    How is that apparently not possible for you?

    It doesn't seem logical at all to me. Based on the time that the founding was happened and that many of the people that were first citizens were from places that had mandatory state religions, I can CLEARLY see how its logical that the morals and views that were imparted to them due to their religious upbringing would find its way into the traditions and laws of this country while at the same time they would believe it was important that people could practice their own religions without interference or determination of what that religion is by the government.
    Once again, our laws are not based on religion, they are based on common human desire. it just so happens religion is based on the same thing. The desire came first, then religion.

    It is because people came from places with mandatory state religions that they saw a need to omit it from the United States. That seems more logical to me. I suppose its all in how an individual views it.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Okay, going by a few posts I have to ask who forgot to announce the Westboro Baptist church was active on this site?

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Once again, our laws are not based on religion, they are based on common human desire. it just so happens religion is based on the same thing. The desire came first, then religion.
    I, and a great deal of philsophers, disagree with you that general the things found in religion or law as basic human nautre/desire.

    Without societal influence I fully believe that man's general precondition is brutish, nasty, and short. Without any societal conditioning I believe humans are essentially more intelligent animals where the strong take and do what they wish at the detriment of the lesser. Its through joining together into a society with common views, norms, and laws that we move beyond this.

    now, you can say its just "common human desire", and perhaps it is. However, HOW one comes about to learn these desires and have them ingrained in you is important.

    I believe that if you take an individual and have the grow up in the wild and have another that grows up within a stable christian or jewish or even simply moral but agnostic family that you'll find a DISTINCT differnce between their societal views of what is right and moral. it would be fool hearty to say that the foundation of the views of said child growing up with the family did not come through the religion if that is the way it is taught and imparted to him.

    Laws do not come from anything but men, who create them and vote for them. HOWEVER, why men agree with laws or why people concieve said laws comes about due to the societal makeup and actions that have occured throughout their entire life. As such, if religious views and morals were imparted in them and shape the way they view the world and what is right and wrong and as such thier view of what is right and wrong impacts the way in which they vote/create/adhere to laws and traditions, then it can be said that those religious views that were the foundation of their thoughts is then ALSO the foundation for the laws/traidions they had a hand in.

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    Re: "We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I, and a great deal of philsophers, disagree with you that general the things found in religion or law as basic human nautre/desire.

    Without societal influence I fully believe that man's general precondition is brutish, nasty, and short. Without any societal conditioning I believe humans are essentially more intelligent animals where the strong take and do what they wish at the detriment of the lesser. Its through joining together into a society with common views, norms, and laws that we move beyond this.

    now, you can say its just "common human desire", and perhaps it is. However, HOW one comes about to learn these desires and have them ingrained in you is important.

    I believe that if you take an individual and have the grow up in the wild and have another that grows up within a stable christian or jewish or even simply moral but agnostic family that you'll find a DISTINCT differnce between their societal views of what is right and moral. it would be fool hearty to say that the foundation of the views of said child growing up with the family did not come through the religion if that is the way it is taught and imparted to him.

    Laws do not come from anything but men, who create them and vote for them. HOWEVER, why men agree with laws or why people concieve said laws comes about due to the societal makeup and actions that have occured throughout their entire life. As such, if religious views and morals were imparted in them and shape the way they view the world and what is right and wrong and as such thier view of what is right and wrong impacts the way in which they vote/create/adhere to laws and traditions, then it can be said that those religious views that were the foundation of their thoughts is then ALSO the foundation for the laws/traidions they had a hand in.
    If you take an individual who grew up in the wild, of course their moral are different. That is because they have a "common in the wild desire." That is not common human desire because there is no "common human" to speak of.

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