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Thread: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

  1. #31
    Educator BulletWounD's Avatar
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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Good point, one I cannot reasonably argue with, except I do not believe i was confusing cause and effect. But the validity of your statement holds true. And as of yet we have not created a foreign policy of first strike to defend allies so i will concede perhaps my jump to nuclear arms for a deterrence to US invasion and acknowledge the existence of other external stimuli to their determination to posses nukes. However I do not believe that nukes would be 1st strike weapons in either case or even that Iran or North Korea would use them as such. Iran would not nuke Israel as it is the Holy land and would pit the entirety of the Middle East (as well the rest of the world) against them for nothing more than mere spite but then again they did call to have Israel "Wiped off the face of the Earth". And as far as North Korea actually nuking South Korea as a means of reunification.... i dunno I find it hard to believe that NK would believe that the International community at large wouldn't also step in and take whatever steps they deemed necessary to defeat a regime willing to nuke its neighbor.
    Perhaps they would, perhaps they would not. However, they would definitely use them as leverage were they to go on a crusade invading their "infidel" neighbors. If Israel intervened because a Pan-Islamic nation which seeks to destroy Israel is not in their best interest, I have no reason to believe they would not be used against Israeli forces or states outside of Israel. Nor do I have any reason to believe that these weapons will not end up in the hands of terrorists or irresponsible regimes which seek the destruction of Israel and/or the United States.


    possibly, or perhaps if the Bush administration was more open to negotiations things would have been different.... Unfortunately we will never know the answer to that one
    Negotiating with these regimes has been proven futile time and time again. How many more resolutions would need to be passed before someone decides to go in there and do something about it? How many more concessions will be made to North Korea before the international community realizes that they are liars, scammers, and terrorists?

    In essence I see your point but it smacks of empire building in my mind. But once again only time will tell if we ever truly let go of Iraq. But keep in mind my statement about people complaining about Obama's apologies wasn't really trying to tie them into this debate but simply to state that a good portion of the general public seem to be saying that because he may be construed as appearing weak that we should be afraid of these nations attacking us. And if the population of the most powerful nation in the world gets scared because we are appearing weak we are either A. not as powerful as we think we are and are beginning to recognize that fact or B. just have a general distaste for admitting wrongdoings and somehow find it distasteful.
    We will let it go. What we're doing now can be likened to post-WWII Japan. We needed to help them rebuild themselves so that they would not see militant conquest as the only viable way of obtaining resources. Now Japan is an ally and a trade partner. That doesn't make them part of our "empire." The US gave up their imperialist experiment in the early 1900's.

    Only observation. The international community has in general kept a close watch on nuclear ambitions ever since the cold war. While I cannot claim any evidence that anything was particularly ramped up (beside quoting a myriad of articles that more or less just seem to be overly dramatic in order to sell news better) I do believe the relative silence regarding their nuclear ambition is evidence enough that at least before the invasion of Iraq the powers that be (in terms of a nuclear watchdog) were not really making a lot of noise re: Iran and North Korea's nuclear ambitions. I'm not saying it was non-existent.... just no where in the volume of news regarding that issue as we got after the invasion.
    When India, and especially Pakistan, obtained nuclear weapons it was a clear signal to the international community that these weapons can lead to unforeseen consequences as they proliferate to weaker, less stable regimes. 9/11 showed us that non-state actors can indeed pose a major threat to the interests of the United States and the international community.

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Obviously the "ignore that Iran exists" method held by the previous administration worked wonders for the ME situation.
    What an absurd statement considering the grief Leftists gave Bush over his CORRECT labeling Iran as part of the "axis of evil".

    But then, it is pretty common for the Bush haters to ignore reality, attempt to re-write the historical record and avoid the truth isn't it?

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Is it just me, or is there something horribly backwards here?

    "Hey, that guys got a gun and might start shooting people. C'mon guys, lets get rid of our guns."
    It is always refreshing to see someone who "gets it."

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Man, I think the general atmosphere of this thread is just plain insane. Mosre of why we as American REALLY need to change our own worldview.
    It is not a change we are seeing, just the ongoing circle of stupidity where we go from being a nation of strength to one who hands over it's sovereignty to the UN and world body.

    How's that working with North Korea by the way? Oh that's right, China and Russia blocked any useful UN sanctions....again.

    The notion that Obama's world view is an improvement on REAL leadership from the previous administration is quite amusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Let me see if I get this straight... for decades we have been going to countries with nuclear arms and suggested they disarm themselves.... that fine right. But the minute someone else follows our lead and does the same thing they are insane?
    Once more you don't get it; we have been going to countries like Russia and China begging them to join us in dismantling ALL of our arsenals. Meanwhile rogue states like Iran and North Korea attempt to secretly develop them knowing a feckless world body called the UN will do little if nothing to prevent them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Don't get me wrong... there is no way we would disarm ourselves in the current political state of affairs in the world nor will we be able to for a good long time to come. But so far this is the first rational thing Iran has suggested in a long time.... Disarmament of nuclear weapons.... c'mon everyone would agree that could it actually become reality we would all be better off.
    What is fascinating is the rhetoric that this is NEWS or something new. We have been working towards dismantling nuclear arms and preventing nuclear proliferation for decades. Ever since good ole Ronny Reagan spent the Soviet Union into oblivion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Oh and first off to all of you that don't think that WE, THE UNITED STATES aren't the main impetus for nations to develop nuclear arms.... ESPECIALLY in light of the BUSH DOCTRINE and the policy of striking first to protect our nation interests. What a self absorbed people we have become.
    What another specious and absurd statement. There was no "Bush Doctrine". That was a fabrication of the leftists and the leftist media in their attempt to impugn a President who actually did something good and meant what he said.

    The notion that Bush stuck first is also specious and absurd. It is telling that those who choose to bash Bush and admire Obama's march to failure have to fabricate their own version of actual events and history.

    It is much the same as declaring failure before the fight is over and arguing for failure in Iraq for partisan political gain.

    Carry on.

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Ahhhh correct good sir..... but the bush doctrine was the thing that made it American Policy

    EDIT: Let me exemplify what I mean..... Judging by how we reacted to Iraq... knowing that their only defense against US invasion should they piss us off or we determine them to be a threat would be a nuclear option.... it only makes good strategic sense for Iran to develop nukes. Or at least one could draw the logical conclusion that this is what they are doing. were so paranoid about the world attacking us again what makes you think that based off our past actions parts of the rest of the world are paranoid about invasion from the US?

    Besides we said NK/Iran and Iraq were in the axis of evil..... we invade Iraq and wham.... NK and Iran kick start their Nuclear program into high gear.... coincidence? I think not.
    You would be wrong again with this assertion; but then, your record for being wrong is safe.

    The FACT is that now that the threat of an Iraq run by a treacherous dictator has been LEGALLY removed by the UN Coalition led by the USA, Iran safer than it has ever been. Iran is much safer NOW than where they would have been had we continued doing NOTHING and allowing Saddam to re-constitute his military and WMDs.

    One of the primary reasons Saddam allowed the false perception that he had WMDs, and thus ended up being removed, was that he feared IRAN more than he did the UN.

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    sorry edited my previous post.... no not for 1st strikes but to prevent an unwanted US invasion
    Another specious and false assertion; the US does not invade nations unless they have attacked the US, pose an imminent threat to US citizens and/or have attacked UN member nations without provocation and then defied UN resolutions for decades after they are defeated.

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Let me see if I get this straight... for decades we have been going to countries with nuclear arms and suggested they disarm themselves.... that fine right. But the minute someone else follows our lead and does the same thing they are insane?
    I think you'll recall that in doing so, we have also offered to disarm ourselves in the process. We (and by we, I mean the US, the UK and France) have them because the Russians and Chinese have them, and vice-versa.

    Oh and first off to all of you that don't think that WE, THE UNITED STATES aren't the main impetus for nations to develop nuclear arms...
    Can you show that India and Pakistan developed nuclear weapons because of the US?
    Last edited by Goobieman; 04-07-09 at 01:59 PM.

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Thats not what I am suggesting.... let me try it this way:

    1 us gets attacked (9/11)
    2. Bush declares Iran, Iraq and North Korea as an "Axis of Evil"
    Bush CORRECTLY declared Iran, Iraq and North Korea as an ďAxis of Evil.Ē

    To suggest otherwise requires willful denial or ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    3. we briefly enter Afghanistan to go after Bin Laden
    Briefly? Last time I looked, we are still there and will be there for the long haul. We didnít just go into Afghanistan to go after Bin Laden; we went after a rogue regime who chose to protect Bin Laden and actually treated terrorists as welcome guests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    4. then we enter Iraq selling the notion of Iraq being in possession of WMD's
    This is again a false ans specious argument. Obviously you have never actually read the UN resolutions and the Joint Resolution passed on a nearly unanimous bi-partisan basis on Iraq for the REAL reasons.

    Here is a link so that you can READ and become INFORMED:

    Text of Joint Resolution On Iraq Passed By The United States Congress [Octover 11, 2002]

    I want you to count how many references to WMDs this 1,850 plus word document contains.

    I know it is convenient for Liberals to ignore the REAL reasons we went in and want to FALSLEY believe that the region was better served with Saddam in charge rather than a freely elected Democracy, but those with brains would tend to disagree based on Saddams history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    5. After not finding any we decide to stay.... Much of the world could construe this as the US simply trying to manufacture reasons to enter and invade a country who's regime we have designated as evil
    The only ones in the world trying to construe this are terrorists, leftists and Liberals who think that forcing a rogue regime to comply with UN resolutions with force is NEVER an option and anyone who does, especially a US President, should then be impugned and the historic record constantly re-written to fit their narrow and myopic partisan point of view.

    Iraq led by Saddam was an evil regime that threatened its neighbors and peace in the region. To suggest otherwise once more requires willful denial or ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    6. NK and Iran realize they cannot really defend against a US invasion they need a reliable deterrant..... they jump start a relitively dusty nuclear arms program....
    Once again you take the false and specious arguments of rogue regimes and terrorist sympathizers to make the absurd rationalization that Iran and North Korea need to develop nukes to protect them from the mean old USA.

    But this absurd and false argument requires the belief that the US just wantonly invades nations for no reason at all. Iran has never invaded a neighboring nation in modern times and there is no reason to invade. Better to isolate them for the support of terrorists. North Korea canít feed itís people let alone successfully invade their neighbor to the South; better to isolate them.

    The REALITY and TRUTH is that by developing nuclear weapons, they deliberately place their citizens and neighbors at far greater risk.

    Does anyone in the world with a brain think that a few nukes would prevent the USA from imposing its will if it chose to do so with nukes? What an idiotic notion and one that can only be expressed by ignorance or despotic nations who need an enemy to exert total control over their citizens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    I dunno..... seems to me to be a relitively logical progression especially once you consider the fact that we basically refused to talk to either of these nations at this particular point in time besides sending relatively threatening press releases their way
    More absurdity and specious lies to support a purely partisan point of view; the US was actively engaged with the UN and Iran just as it has been with North Korea to force them to comply with the treaties they signed against nuclear proliferation and to get them to come to the table.

    I guess when you find yourself in the wilderness avoiding the historic record and facts, you have to continually fabricate your own version of reality to support such specious claims.

    Carry on; I look forward to correcting more of your false perceptions and outright lies to support an obvious partisan bias for purely partisan political purposes.

  9. #39
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    1 us gets attacked (9/11)
    2. Bush declares Iran, Iraq and North Korea as an "Axis of Evil"
    Rightfully so, given their actions both before and after 9-11.

    3. we briefly enter Afghanistan to go after Bin Laden
    If by 'briefly' you mean 'from October 2001 to present, then yes'
    And, to be clear, we didnt go there just to get ObL.

    4. then we enter Iraq selling the notion of Iraq being in possession of WMD's
    Aside from the fact that there were several additional reason we went into Iraq - which is made clear in the 2002 resolution that authorized force...

    This 'selling' had been going on since at least 1998. It was only once it was clear that GWB was actually going to DO something about it that those 'selling' the threat or Iraqi WMDs questioned them.

    5. After not finding any we decide to stay...
    The US has a tradition or rebulding the countries it defeats in war.
    Why do you suppose we would do anything different in Iraq?

    Much of the world could construe this as the US simply trying to manufacture reasons to enter and invade a country who's regime we have designated as evil
    They could. But then, there's nothing to support this.

    6. NK and Iran realize they cannot really defend against a US invasion they need a reliable deterrant..... they jump start a relitively dusty nuclear arms program.
    Given the shortcomings in your supporting arguments, your conclusion is unsound.

  10. #40
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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    What an absurd statement considering the grief Leftists gave Bush over his CORRECT labeling Iran as part of the "axis of evil".
    How is it absurd? What benefit came out of Bush's foreign policy of "don't acknowledge they exist"?
    Last edited by Gibberish; 04-07-09 at 06:40 PM.
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