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Thread: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    It's not the "Bush doctrine." Offensive defense is as old as mankind. The US, Russia, and China absolutely NEED nuclear weapons due to the events of history. Iran and NK do not need nuclear weapons. Nobody's going to nuke Iran or NK unless they nuke us first.
    Ahhhh correct good sir..... but the bush doctrine was the thing that made it American Policy

    EDIT: Let me exemplify what I mean..... Judging by how we reacted to Iraq... knowing that their only defense against US invasion should they piss us off or we determine them to be a threat would be a nuclear option.... it only makes good strategic sense for Iran to develop nukes. Or at least one could draw the logical conclusion that this is what they are doing. were so paranoid about the world attacking us again what makes you think that based off our past actions parts of the rest of the world are paranoid about invasion from the US?

    Besides we said NK/Iran and Iraq were in the axis of evil..... we invade Iraq and wham.... NK and Iran kick start their Nuclear program into high gear.... coincidence? I think not.
    Last edited by Thinkforyourself; 04-07-09 at 11:14 AM.

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Ahhhh correct good sir..... but the bush doctrine was the thing that made it American Policy
    So your thinking is that Iran and NK need nuclear weapons so they can launch a first strike in the event of war?

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Man, I think the general atmosphere of this thread is just plain insane. Mosre of why we as American REALLY need to change our own worldview.

    Let me see if I get this straight... for decades we have been going to countries with nuclear arms and suggested they disarm themselves.... that fine right. But the minute someone else follows our lead and does the same thing they are insane?

    Don't get me wrong... there is no way we would disarm ourselves in the current political state of affairs in the world nor will we be able to for a good long time to come. But so far this is the first rational thing Iran has suggested in a long time.... Disarmament of nuclear weapons.... c'mon everyone would agree that could it actually become reality we would all be better off.

    Oh and first off to all of you that don't think that WE, THE UNITED STATES aren't the main impetus for nations to develop nuclear arms.... ESPECIALLY in light of the BUSH DOCTRINE and the policy of striking first to protect our nation interests. What a self absorbed people we have become.
    Welcome to Debate Politics. I have been very impressed with your posts.

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    So your thinking is that Iran and NK need nuclear weapons so they can launch a first strike in the event of war?
    sorry edited my previous post.... no not for 1st strikes but to prevent an unwanted US invasion

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    sorry edited my previous post.... no not for 1st strikes but to prevent an unwanted US invasion
    If they use nuclear weapons first, that's a first strike regardless of the circumstances and they would get nuked into oblivion. The bigger fear is that these weapons will get transfered to non-state actors and unstable regimes that are not responsible enough to hold them.
    Last edited by BulletWounD; 04-07-09 at 11:21 AM.

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    If they use nuclear weapons first, that's a first strike regardless of the circumstances and they would get nuked into oblivion.
    Thats not what I am suggesting.... let me try it this way:

    1 us gets attacked (9/11)
    2. Bush declares Iran, Iraq and North Korea as an "Axis of Evil"
    3. we briefly enter Afghanistan to go after Bin Laden
    4. then we enter Iraq selling the notion of Iraq being in possession of WMD's
    5. After not finding any we decide to stay.... Much of the world could construe this as the US simply trying to manufacture reasons to enter and invade a country who's regime we have designated as evil
    6. NK and Iran realize they cannot really defend against a US invasion they need a reliable deterrant..... they jump start a relitively dusty nuclear arms program....


    I dunno..... seems to me to be a relitively logical progression especially once you consider the fact that we basically refused to talk to either of these nations at this particular point in time besides sending relatively threatening press releases their way

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Thats not what I am suggesting.... let me try it this way:

    1 us gets attacked (9/11)
    2. Bush declares Iran, Iraq and North Korea as an "Axis of Evil"
    3. we briefly enter Afghanistan to go after Bin Laden
    4. then we enter Iraq selling the notion of Iraq being in possession of WMD's
    5. After not finding any we decide to stay.... Much of the world could construe this as the US simply trying to manufacture reasons to enter and invade a country who's regime we have designated as evil
    6. NK and Iran realize they cannot really defend against a US invasion they need a reliable deterrant..... they jump start a relitively dusty nuclear arms program....


    I dunno..... seems to me to be a relitively logical progression especially once you consider the fact that we basically refused to talk to either of these nations at this particular point in time besides sending relatively threatening press releases their way
    The regimes Iraq, Iran, and North Korea certainly ARE(/were) evil regimes. Whether they constitute an "axis" is another question. Iran and North Korea have worked extensively together in the construction of their nuclear programs. Without a doubt, Sadam, who had already attempted to build a nuclear program of his own, would have joined in. The nuclear programs of North Korea, Iran, and Iraq came BEFORE 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan not because of it.

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    The regimes Iraq, Iran, and North Korea certainly ARE(/were) evil regimes. Whether they constitute an "axis" is another question. Iran and North Korea have worked extensively together in the construction of their nuclear programs. Without a doubt, Sadam, who had already attempted to build a nuclear program of his own, would have joined in. The nuclear programs of North Korea, Iran, and Iraq came BEFORE 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan not because of it.
    Oh i have no doubt that they have had a nuclear arms program long before 9/11.... once again that isn't my argument. It just seems to me that while it is very clear that all three countries shared nuclear ambitions the war in Iraq and the general disdain by our previous administration for all three countries have seem to accelerate their development instead of the converse.

    Lets assume that their nuclear program was going at just as much of a breakneck speed prior to 9/11. Lets also assume that our previous administration new this. The only logic to attacking Iraq under the guise of "We must protect America from enemies that are developing or have WMD's" would be to deter Iran and North Korea from continuing their nuclear weapon ambitions while consequently ridding ourselves of a thorn in our side (Saddam). If these assumptions are true then our actions had completely the opposite effect than intended as both countries (Iran and North Korea) are basically flipping us the proverbial bird in terms of halting their nuclear programs.


    If either assumption or both are Incorrect and they were in fact either having a nuclear arms program that was basically progressing at a crawl or if the administration simply didn't know about them, then I think we both can agree that they picked up the pace after the Iraq invasion enough for the international community to take notice and start screaming bloody murder.

    I'm just saying our actions do in fact have consequences and I think at times we turn a blind eye to the parts of the world that view us as bullies or imposing. Hell the entire United states has a conniption fit if they believe Obama is appearing weak with a bow or for apologizing for past US indiscretions for fear that some small terrorists sect might blow up another building or subway station...... How can you blame 2 relatively small countries for being afraid we might do to them what we did to Iraq and destroy their ENTIRE country. Particularly when we lumped them into the same pie as Iraq.

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkforyourself View Post
    Oh i have no doubt that they have had a nuclear arms program long before 9/11.... once again that isn't my argument. It just seems to me that while it is very clear that all three countries shared nuclear ambitions the war in Iraq and the general disdain by our previous administration for all three countries have seem to accelerate their development instead of the converse.
    All that I ask is that you not confuse cause and effect. Iran and Iraq were developing nuclear weapons probably to protect themselves against each other. The concern now is that they will be used by Iran to bring about the destruction of Israel, a long term goal of the Iranian regime. North Korea wants nuclear weapons because their long-term goal is to conquer the South by force. Both Israel and S. Korea share a commonality - they're allies of the United States.

    Lets assume that their nuclear program was going at just as much of a breakneck speed prior to 9/11. Lets also assume that our previous administration new this. The only logic to attacking Iraq under the guise of "We must protect America from enemies that are developing or have WMD's" would be to deter Iran and North Korea from continuing their nuclear weapon ambitions while consequently ridding ourselves of a thorn in our side (Saddam). If these assumptions are true then our actions had completely the opposite effect than intended as both countries (Iran and North Korea) are basically flipping us the proverbial bird in terms of halting their nuclear programs.

    This is to be expected
    Not really. In all likelihood they would have done the same thing anyway.

    If either assumption or both are Incorrect and they were in fact either having a nuclear arms program that was basically progressing at a crawl or if the administration simply didn't know about them, then I think we both can agree that they picked up the pace after the Iraq invasion enough for the international community to take notice and start screaming bloody murder.

    I'm just saying our actions do in fact have consequences and I think at times we turn a blind eye to the parts of the world that view us as bullies or imposing. Hell the entire United states has a conniption fit if they believe Obama is appearing weak with a bow or for apologizing for past US indiscretions for fear that some small terrorists sect might blow up another building or subway station...... How can you blame 2 relatively small countries for being afraid we might do to them what we did to Iraq and destroy their ENTIRE country. Particularly when we lumped them into the same pie as Iraq.
    Obama never specified what exactly he was apologizing for. It's kind of hard to take him seriously. We destroyed Iraq but now we're rebuilding it. Most nations would have just gone in, destroyed, and rolled out.

    Do you have any evidence that they "picked up pace?'

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    Re: Iran criticizes Obama, calls on U.S. to scrap nuclear arms

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    All that I ask is that you not confuse cause and effect. Iran and Iraq were developing nuclear weapons probably to protect themselves against each other. The concern now is that they will be used by Iran to bring about the destruction of Israel, a long term goal of the Iranian regime. North Korea wants nuclear weapons because their long-term goal is to conquer the South by force. Both Israel and S. Korea share a commonality - they're allies of the United States.
    Good point, one I cannot reasonably argue with, except I do not believe i was confusing cause and effect. But the validity of your statement holds true. And as of yet we have not created a foreign policy of first strike to defend allies so i will concede perhaps my jump to nuclear arms for a deterrence to US invasion and acknowledge the existence of other external stimuli to their determination to posses nukes. However I do not believe that nukes would be 1st strike weapons in either case or even that Iran or North Korea would use them as such. Iran would not nuke Israel as it is the Holy land and would pit the entirety of the Middle East (as well the rest of the world) against them for nothing more than mere spite but then again they did call to have Israel "Wiped off the face of the Earth". And as far as North Korea actually nuking South Korea as a means of reunification.... i dunno I find it hard to believe that NK would believe that the International community at large wouldn't also step in and take whatever steps they deemed necessary to defeat a regime willing to nuke its neighbor.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Not really. In all likelihood they would have done the same thing anyway.

    possibly, or perhaps if the Bush administration was more open to negotiations things would have been different.... Unfortunately we will never know the answer to that one

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Obama never specified what exactly he was apologizing for. It's kind of hard to take him seriously. We destroyed Iraq but now we're rebuilding it. Most nations would have just gone in, destroyed, and rolled out.
    In essence I see your point but it smacks of empire building in my mind. But once again only time will tell if we ever truly let go of Iraq. But keep in mind my statement about people complaining about Obama's apologies wasn't really trying to tie them into this debate but simply to state that a good portion of the general public seem to be saying that because he may be construed as appearing weak that we should be afraid of these nations attacking us. And if the population of the most powerful nation in the world gets scared because we are appearing weak we are either A. not as powerful as we think we are and are beginning to recognize that fact or B. just have a general distaste for admitting wrongdoings and somehow find it distasteful.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Do you have any evidence that they "picked up pace?'
    Only observation. The international community has in general kept a close watch on nuclear ambitions ever since the cold war. While I cannot claim any evidence that anything was particularly ramped up (beside quoting a myriad of articles that more or less just seem to be overly dramatic in order to sell news better) I do believe the relative silence regarding their nuclear ambition is evidence enough that at least before the invasion of Iraq the powers that be (in terms of a nuclear watchdog) were not really making a lot of noise re: Iran and North Korea's nuclear ambitions. I'm not saying it was non-existent.... just no where in the volume of news regarding that issue as we got after the invasion.

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