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Thread: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

  1. #51
    Student thabigred's Avatar
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    Re: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Blah blah blah... Blame America. It's always America or "the capitalists." Poor, beleaguered little tyrants... Don't give me this ****. NK decided it was wise to unilaterally invade the south. Now NK has a "military first" policy which places the military ahead of its people. That's not our fault.
    I am sorry to bring up Mexico again, but Mexico spends more on there military than North Korea...does that mean they have a military first policy? I am sorry to keep comparing the two, but they are very comparable countries.

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures[/ame]

    Nobody is questioning your patriotism buddy, I am just asking for an Objective look into the situation. Something every LIBERTARIAN should embrace.
    Last edited by thabigred; 04-08-09 at 04:37 PM.

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    Re: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    I am sorry to bring up Mexico again, but Mexico spends more on there military than North Korea...does that mean they have a military first policy? I am sorry to keep comparing the two, but they are very comparable countries.

    List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Nobody is questioning your patriotism buddy, I am just asking for an Objective look into the situation. Something every LIBERTARIAN should embrace.
    NK cuts rations and leaves thousands across NK without food, just so it can put more money in the militaries budget (and they are far from lacking money themselves). It also scales back vital public expenditure (though it is almost close to nonexistant anyway) so that it can fund its military and make them even more prosperous, whilst the civilians of NK starve to death and have to live in poverty. Thats a military first policy, regardless of how much they actually spend on the military.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Student thabigred's Avatar
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    Re: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    NK cuts rations and leaves thousands across NK without food, just so it can put more money in the militaries budget (and they are far from lacking money themselves). It also scales back vital public expenditure (though it is almost close to nonexistant anyway) so that it can fund its military and make them even more prosperous, whilst the civilians of NK starve to death and have to live in poverty. Thats a military first policy, regardless of how much they actually spend on the military.
    That is propaganda that is tossed around by western media.

    The famines started in North Korea after the USSR collapsed, without industry coming in from former USSR states, they could not afford to import enough food to feed there people.

    These stories about how the Norks are cutting cost in all sectures to pay for all these weapons are just not true.

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    Educator BulletWounD's Avatar
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    Re: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    I am sorry to bring up Mexico again, but Mexico spends more on there military than North Korea...does that mean they have a military first policy?

    List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Nobody is questioning your patriotism buddy, I am just asking for an Objective look into the situation. Something every LIBERTARIAN should embrace.
    What percentage of the GDP does Mexico spend on their military? THAT is the important question. It's hard to tell because of the way they run their economy, but estimates range between 30-50% for NK. They've even been caught diverting humanitarian aid to their military. The economy has been mismanaged by the KWP for decades. For a good look at why their economy sucks, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_North_Korea"]read this article.[/ame] Most of it has to do with the fact that their system of centrally planned, state owned enterprises is fundamentally flawed.
    Last edited by BulletWounD; 04-08-09 at 04:47 PM.

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    Re: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    That is propaganda that is tossed around by western media.

    The famines started in North Korea after the USSR collapsed, without industry coming in from former USSR states, they could not afford to import enough food to feed there people.
    It's not a matter of lack of imports. It's a matter of lack of HANDOUTS. The Soviets got tired of being screwed by NK at every turn.

    In 1979 North Korea renegotiated much of its international debt, but in 1980 it defaulted on all of its loans except those from Japan. By the end of 1986, hard-currency debt had reached more than USD 1 billion. It also owed nearly USD 2 billion to communist creditors, principally the Soviet Union
    The Soviets were going bankrupt themselves because of their own crappy system. They couldn't afford to keep the crappy system of NK on life support.

    In the 1990s North Korea saw stagnation turning into crisis. Economic assistance received from the former USSR and China was an important factor of its economic growth. In 1991 the former USSR withdrew its support and demanded for payment in hard currency for imports.
    These stories about how the Norks are cutting cost in all sectures to pay for all these weapons are just not true.
    That money has to come from somewhere, my friend and it's coming right off of the plates of the people of NK.
    Last edited by BulletWounD; 04-08-09 at 05:00 PM.

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    Re: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    That is propaganda that is tossed around by western media.

    The famines started in North Korea after the USSR collapsed, without industry coming in from former USSR states, they could not afford to import enough food to feed there people.

    These stories about how the Norks are cutting cost in all sectures to pay for all these weapons are just not true.
    Id much rather believe reliable western media sources then one man who insists its propaganda.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Student thabigred's Avatar
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    Re: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    What percentage of the GDP does Mexico spend on their military? THAT is the important question. It's hard to tell because of the way they run their economy, but estimates range between 30-50% for NK. They've even been caught diverting humanitarian aid to their military. The economy has been mismanaged by the KWP for decades. For a good look at why their economy sucks, read this article. Most of it has to do with the fact that their system of centrally planned, state owned enterprises is fundamentally flawed.
    North Korea's economy remains one of the world's last centrally planned systems. The role of market allocation is sharply limited - mainly in the rural sector where peasants sell produce from small private plots. There are almost no small businesses. Although there have been scattered and limited attempts at decentralization, as of mid-1993, P'yongyang's basic adherence to a rigid centrally planned economy continues, as does its reliance on fundamentally non-pecuniary incentives. The collapse of socialist governments around the world in 1991, particularly North Korea's principal benefactor, the Soviet Union, have forced North Korean economy to realign its foreign economic relations. Economic exchanges with South Korea have even begun in earnest. A recent attempt at creating Chinese-style Special Economic Zones is representative of North Korea's current movement towards capitalism[1].
    How about you read your own link?

    The centralizing is only a part of the problem with North Korea, the loss in economic opportunities with Russian and all it's former states which are having there own problems atm has been the biggest part.

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    Re: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    How about you read your own link?

    The centralizing is only a part of the problem with North Korea, the loss in economic opportunities with Russian and all it's former states which are having there own problems atm has been the biggest part.
    Your flaw is that you ignore the problems of centrally planned economies which have been abandoned due to their inherent inflexibility and instead try to blame the collapse of the Soviet Union on America and all of North Korea's problems on America. The North Korean regime failed at life and the ex-Soviet states decided it wasn't worth funding them anymore with handouts.

    Sure, America played a role but the Soviets were trying just as hard to collapse the capitalist system. Unfortunately for them, the western system is much more robust, flexible, and efficient than state socialism and tyranny, so it didn't really work out that way.

    I love this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Teh Ching
    A newborn is soft and tender,
    A crone, hard and stiff.
    Plants and animals, in life, are supple and succulent;
    In death, withered and dry.
    So softness and tenderness are attributes of life,
    And hardness and stiffness, attributes of death.

    Just as a sapless tree will split and decay
    So an inflexible force will meet defeat;
    The hard and mighty lie beneath the ground
    While the tender and weak dance on the breeze above.
    You also fail to acknowledge that their "military first" policy kills their own people at the expense of their military. While America spends a relatively large amount of money on her military, it's less than 5% of the GDP. Compare this to ~20% in the USSR and 30-50% in the DPRK.

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    Student thabigred's Avatar
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    Re: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletWounD View Post
    Your flaw is that you ignore the problems of centrally planned economies which have been abandoned due to their inherent inflexibility and instead try to blame the collapse of the Soviet Union on America and all of North Korea's problems on America. The North Korean regime failed at life and the ex-Soviet states decided it wasn't worth funding them anymore with handouts.

    Sure, America played a role but the Soviets were trying just as hard to collapse the capitalist system. Unfortunately for them, the western system is much more robust, flexible, and efficient than state socialism and tyranny, so it didn't really work out that way.

    I love this one:

    You also fail to acknowledge that their "military first" policy kills their own people at the expense of their military. While America spends a relatively large amount of money on her military, it's less than 5% of the GDP. Compare this to ~20% in the USSR and 30-50% in the DPRK.
    1. America was the main reason for the Soviet unions collapse, they could not compete with the US. Took on large debts which could not be re-payed to restart there industries, which was not sustainable. The soviet union was not giving them handouts, they were economic partners. This idea that the relationship with North Korea and Russia is just not true, they were economic partners.

    This distaste for ideas that you do not agree with is blinding your judgment, this idea that capitalism is much more robust, flexible, and efficient are unfair to other systems. As in many capitalist countries namely the one I keep bringing up Mexico, that is a country that is not robust, flexible or efficient at all.

    I think capitalism is a good system, but saying what you are saying is considered a stereotype of the system.

    All things should be judged on a case by case bases, and in North Korea's case, they have problems with industry because they lost there largest economic partner.

    2. 5% of GDP in America accounts for over 35% of the budget, more than any other government program so save me the comparison. America spends vastly to much on military, more than any country on the face of the earth. The USSR may not of been efficient, but what it did do was allow in the span of 1 generation bring most of Russia from the 3rd world living conditions to what is considered 2nd world. That is unheard of with any system.

    The problem with the system rose when energy, a commodity which they could not obtain efficiently lead the nation to economic collapse. It was not centralizing the government or anything of the like, the US won the war over fossil fuels and pushed them to collapse.

    Because of this, whether that was a good thing or not, tons of countries are back to 3rd world conditions, including much of North Korea.

    Just as building bridges to no where (in America) in the grand scheme of things does not do much to offset the budget, building missiles that can reach the US in the grand scheme of things does not do much to offset there already weak budget.

    By forcing the Norks to comply to what we want them to do will only do exactly what it did to Germany after WWI...

    Push toward Nazism or something worse.

    You really think Kim is bad, wait tell he is overthrown and a true tyrant takes control of North Korea.

  10. #60
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    Re: North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

    Quote Originally Posted by thabigred View Post
    1. America was the main reason for the Soviet unions collapse, they could not compete with the US. Took on large debts which could not be re-payed to restart there industries, which was not sustainable. The soviet union was not giving them handouts, they were economic partners. This idea that the relationship with North Korea and Russia is just not true, they were economic partners.

    This distaste for ideas that you do not agree with is blinding your judgment, this idea that capitalism is much more robust, flexible, and efficient are unfair to other systems. As in many capitalist countries namely the one I keep bringing up Mexico, that is a country that is not robust, flexible or efficient at all.

    I think capitalism is a good system, but saying what you are saying is considered a stereotype of the system.

    All things should be judged on a case by case bases, and in North Korea's case, they have problems with industry because they lost there largest economic partner.

    2. 5% of GDP in America accounts for over 35% of the budget, more than any other government program so save me the comparison. America spends vastly to much on military, more than any country on the face of the earth. The USSR may not of been efficient, but what it did do was allow in the span of 1 generation bring most of Russia from the 3rd world living conditions to what is considered 2nd world. That is unheard of with any system.

    The problem with the system rose when energy, a commodity which they could not obtain efficiently lead the nation to economic collapse. It was not centralizing the government or anything of the like, the US won the war over fossil fuels and pushed them to collapse.

    Because of this, whether that was a good thing or not, tons of countries are back to 3rd world conditions, including much of North Korea.

    Just as building bridges to no where (in America) in the grand scheme of things does not do much to offset the budget, building missiles that can reach the US in the grand scheme of things does not do much to offset there already weak budget.

    By forcing the Norks to comply to what we want them to do will only do exactly what it did to Germany after WWI...

    Push toward Nazism or something worse.

    You really think Kim is bad, wait tell he is overthrown and a true tyrant takes control of North Korea.
    Kim is bad, Mexico is nowhere near as bad as NK. Mexico has TV, radio, etc. with multiple stations. NK has ONE govt owned media outlet....and all it puts out is propaganda.
    The reason the USSR failed, and the reason Mexico does so poorly, is the lack of a substantial middle class. You can't sustain any country with a few very rich and the rest being peasants.
    If THAT isn't clear to you, there is something wrong with the brainwash cycle that has messed up your thinking...
    Last edited by UtahBill; 04-08-09 at 06:23 PM.
    Oracle of Utah
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