• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

North Korean Rocket fails, hours after claiming success.

Blah blah blah... Blame America. It's always America or "the capitalists." Poor, beleaguered little tyrants... Don't give me this ****. NK decided it was wise to unilaterally invade the south. Now NK has a "military first" policy which places the military ahead of its people. That's not our fault.

I am sorry to bring up Mexico again, but Mexico spends more on there military than North Korea...does that mean they have a military first policy? I am sorry to keep comparing the two, but they are very comparable countries.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures[/ame]

Nobody is questioning your patriotism buddy, I am just asking for an Objective look into the situation. Something every LIBERTARIAN should embrace.
 
Last edited:
I am sorry to bring up Mexico again, but Mexico spends more on there military than North Korea...does that mean they have a military first policy? I am sorry to keep comparing the two, but they are very comparable countries.

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nobody is questioning your patriotism buddy, I am just asking for an Objective look into the situation. Something every LIBERTARIAN should embrace.

NK cuts rations and leaves thousands across NK without food, just so it can put more money in the militaries budget (and they are far from lacking money themselves). It also scales back vital public expenditure (though it is almost close to nonexistant anyway) so that it can fund its military and make them even more prosperous, whilst the civilians of NK starve to death and have to live in poverty. Thats a military first policy, regardless of how much they actually spend on the military.
 
NK cuts rations and leaves thousands across NK without food, just so it can put more money in the militaries budget (and they are far from lacking money themselves). It also scales back vital public expenditure (though it is almost close to nonexistant anyway) so that it can fund its military and make them even more prosperous, whilst the civilians of NK starve to death and have to live in poverty. Thats a military first policy, regardless of how much they actually spend on the military.

That is propaganda that is tossed around by western media.

The famines started in North Korea after the USSR collapsed, without industry coming in from former USSR states, they could not afford to import enough food to feed there people.

These stories about how the Norks are cutting cost in all sectures to pay for all these weapons are just not true.
 
I am sorry to bring up Mexico again, but Mexico spends more on there military than North Korea...does that mean they have a military first policy?

List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nobody is questioning your patriotism buddy, I am just asking for an Objective look into the situation. Something every LIBERTARIAN should embrace.

What percentage of the GDP does Mexico spend on their military? THAT is the important question. It's hard to tell because of the way they run their economy, but estimates range between 30-50% for NK. They've even been caught diverting humanitarian aid to their military. The economy has been mismanaged by the KWP for decades. For a good look at why their economy sucks, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_North_Korea"]read this article.[/ame] Most of it has to do with the fact that their system of centrally planned, state owned enterprises is fundamentally flawed.
 
Last edited:
That is propaganda that is tossed around by western media.

The famines started in North Korea after the USSR collapsed, without industry coming in from former USSR states, they could not afford to import enough food to feed there people.

It's not a matter of lack of imports. It's a matter of lack of HANDOUTS. The Soviets got tired of being screwed by NK at every turn.

In 1979 North Korea renegotiated much of its international debt, but in 1980 it defaulted on all of its loans except those from Japan. By the end of 1986, hard-currency debt had reached more than USD 1 billion. It also owed nearly USD 2 billion to communist creditors, principally the Soviet Union

The Soviets were going bankrupt themselves because of their own crappy system. They couldn't afford to keep the crappy system of NK on life support.

In the 1990s North Korea saw stagnation turning into crisis. Economic assistance received from the former USSR and China was an important factor of its economic growth. In 1991 the former USSR withdrew its support and demanded for payment in hard currency for imports.
These stories about how the Norks are cutting cost in all sectures to pay for all these weapons are just not true.

That money has to come from somewhere, my friend and it's coming right off of the plates of the people of NK.
 
Last edited:
That is propaganda that is tossed around by western media.

The famines started in North Korea after the USSR collapsed, without industry coming in from former USSR states, they could not afford to import enough food to feed there people.

These stories about how the Norks are cutting cost in all sectures to pay for all these weapons are just not true.

Id much rather believe reliable western media sources then one man who insists its propaganda.
 
What percentage of the GDP does Mexico spend on their military? THAT is the important question. It's hard to tell because of the way they run their economy, but estimates range between 30-50% for NK. They've even been caught diverting humanitarian aid to their military. The economy has been mismanaged by the KWP for decades. For a good look at why their economy sucks, read this article. Most of it has to do with the fact that their system of centrally planned, state owned enterprises is fundamentally flawed.

North Korea's economy remains one of the world's last centrally planned systems. The role of market allocation is sharply limited - mainly in the rural sector where peasants sell produce from small private plots. There are almost no small businesses. Although there have been scattered and limited attempts at decentralization, as of mid-1993, P'yongyang's basic adherence to a rigid centrally planned economy continues, as does its reliance on fundamentally non-pecuniary incentives. The collapse of socialist governments around the world in 1991, particularly North Korea's principal benefactor, the Soviet Union, have forced North Korean economy to realign its foreign economic relations. Economic exchanges with South Korea have even begun in earnest. A recent attempt at creating Chinese-style Special Economic Zones is representative of North Korea's current movement towards capitalism[1].

How about you read your own link?

The centralizing is only a part of the problem with North Korea, the loss in economic opportunities with Russian and all it's former states which are having there own problems atm has been the biggest part.
 
How about you read your own link?

The centralizing is only a part of the problem with North Korea, the loss in economic opportunities with Russian and all it's former states which are having there own problems atm has been the biggest part.

Your flaw is that you ignore the problems of centrally planned economies which have been abandoned due to their inherent inflexibility and instead try to blame the collapse of the Soviet Union on America and all of North Korea's problems on America. The North Korean regime failed at life and the ex-Soviet states decided it wasn't worth funding them anymore with handouts.

Sure, America played a role but the Soviets were trying just as hard to collapse the capitalist system. Unfortunately for them, the western system is much more robust, flexible, and efficient than state socialism and tyranny, so it didn't really work out that way.

I love this one:

Tao Teh Ching said:
A newborn is soft and tender,
A crone, hard and stiff.
Plants and animals, in life, are supple and succulent;
In death, withered and dry.
So softness and tenderness are attributes of life,
And hardness and stiffness, attributes of death.

Just as a sapless tree will split and decay
So an inflexible force will meet defeat;
The hard and mighty lie beneath the ground
While the tender and weak dance on the breeze above.

You also fail to acknowledge that their "military first" policy kills their own people at the expense of their military. While America spends a relatively large amount of money on her military, it's less than 5% of the GDP. Compare this to ~20% in the USSR and 30-50% in the DPRK.
 
Your flaw is that you ignore the problems of centrally planned economies which have been abandoned due to their inherent inflexibility and instead try to blame the collapse of the Soviet Union on America and all of North Korea's problems on America. The North Korean regime failed at life and the ex-Soviet states decided it wasn't worth funding them anymore with handouts.

Sure, America played a role but the Soviets were trying just as hard to collapse the capitalist system. Unfortunately for them, the western system is much more robust, flexible, and efficient than state socialism and tyranny, so it didn't really work out that way.

I love this one:

You also fail to acknowledge that their "military first" policy kills their own people at the expense of their military. While America spends a relatively large amount of money on her military, it's less than 5% of the GDP. Compare this to ~20% in the USSR and 30-50% in the DPRK.
1. America was the main reason for the Soviet unions collapse, they could not compete with the US. Took on large debts which could not be re-payed to restart there industries, which was not sustainable. The soviet union was not giving them handouts, they were economic partners. This idea that the relationship with North Korea and Russia is just not true, they were economic partners.

This distaste for ideas that you do not agree with is blinding your judgment, this idea that capitalism is much more robust, flexible, and efficient are unfair to other systems. As in many capitalist countries namely the one I keep bringing up Mexico, that is a country that is not robust, flexible or efficient at all.

I think capitalism is a good system, but saying what you are saying is considered a stereotype of the system.

All things should be judged on a case by case bases, and in North Korea's case, they have problems with industry because they lost there largest economic partner.

2. 5% of GDP in America accounts for over 35% of the budget, more than any other government program so save me the comparison. America spends vastly to much on military, more than any country on the face of the earth. The USSR may not of been efficient, but what it did do was allow in the span of 1 generation bring most of Russia from the 3rd world living conditions to what is considered 2nd world. That is unheard of with any system.

The problem with the system rose when energy, a commodity which they could not obtain efficiently lead the nation to economic collapse. It was not centralizing the government or anything of the like, the US won the war over fossil fuels and pushed them to collapse.

Because of this, whether that was a good thing or not, tons of countries are back to 3rd world conditions, including much of North Korea.

Just as building bridges to no where (in America) in the grand scheme of things does not do much to offset the budget, building missiles that can reach the US in the grand scheme of things does not do much to offset there already weak budget.

By forcing the Norks to comply to what we want them to do will only do exactly what it did to Germany after WWI...

Push toward Nazism or something worse.

You really think Kim is bad, wait tell he is overthrown and a true tyrant takes control of North Korea.
 
1. America was the main reason for the Soviet unions collapse, they could not compete with the US. Took on large debts which could not be re-payed to restart there industries, which was not sustainable. The soviet union was not giving them handouts, they were economic partners. This idea that the relationship with North Korea and Russia is just not true, they were economic partners.

This distaste for ideas that you do not agree with is blinding your judgment, this idea that capitalism is much more robust, flexible, and efficient are unfair to other systems. As in many capitalist countries namely the one I keep bringing up Mexico, that is a country that is not robust, flexible or efficient at all.

I think capitalism is a good system, but saying what you are saying is considered a stereotype of the system.

All things should be judged on a case by case bases, and in North Korea's case, they have problems with industry because they lost there largest economic partner.

2. 5% of GDP in America accounts for over 35% of the budget, more than any other government program so save me the comparison. America spends vastly to much on military, more than any country on the face of the earth. The USSR may not of been efficient, but what it did do was allow in the span of 1 generation bring most of Russia from the 3rd world living conditions to what is considered 2nd world. That is unheard of with any system.

The problem with the system rose when energy, a commodity which they could not obtain efficiently lead the nation to economic collapse. It was not centralizing the government or anything of the like, the US won the war over fossil fuels and pushed them to collapse.

Because of this, whether that was a good thing or not, tons of countries are back to 3rd world conditions, including much of North Korea.

Just as building bridges to no where (in America) in the grand scheme of things does not do much to offset the budget, building missiles that can reach the US in the grand scheme of things does not do much to offset there already weak budget.

By forcing the Norks to comply to what we want them to do will only do exactly what it did to Germany after WWI...

Push toward Nazism or something worse.

You really think Kim is bad, wait tell he is overthrown and a true tyrant takes control of North Korea.

Kim is bad, Mexico is nowhere near as bad as NK. Mexico has TV, radio, etc. with multiple stations. NK has ONE govt owned media outlet....and all it puts out is propaganda.
The reason the USSR failed, and the reason Mexico does so poorly, is the lack of a substantial middle class. You can't sustain any country with a few very rich and the rest being peasants.
If THAT isn't clear to you, there is something wrong with the brainwash cycle that has messed up your thinking...:2razz::lol:
 
Last edited:
Kim is bad, Mexico is nowhere near as bad as NK. Mexico has TV, radio, etc. with multiple stations. NK has ONE govt owned media outlet....and all it puts out is propaganda.
The reason the USSR failed, and the reason Mexico does so poorly, is the lack of a substantial middle class. You can't sustain any country with a few very rich and the rest being peasants.
If THAT isn't clear to you, there is something wrong with the brainwash cycle that has messed up your thinking...:2razz::lol:

Almost everyone in USSR were middle class citizens, and no that is not a viable reason, there is no evidence to come to this conclusion.

That is a stereotype middle class in the united states have come up with the better understand something they obviously do not understand in the first place.

Also if you truly thing our media is any better than North Korea's I have something to tell you, no media is truly free. It is just at what extent one media is more free than another.

You don't find objective articles in newspapers or on news channels, you find jumbled subjective responses that have interests that conflict with making the news truly free.

At least North Korea is openly running state run news that has it's interest at heart instead of American news that is not objective yet runs around like it is.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYlyb1Bx9Ic"]YouTube - The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News[/ame]
 
1. America was the main reason for the Soviet unions collapse, they could not compete with the US. Took on large debts which could not be re-payed to restart there industries, which was not sustainable. The soviet union was not giving them handouts, they were economic partners. This idea that the relationship with North Korea and Russia is just not true, they were economic partners.

Them's the breaks. If only it weren't for those greeeeeeeeedy capitalists the Commust Party oligarchs could have conquered and enslaved the entire world... Boohoo...

"'If only, if only,' the woodpecker sighs, "The bark on the tree was just a little bit softer."

What did Russia get in return from their obstinate little "partner" in SE Asia?

This distaste for ideas that you do not agree with is blinding your judgment, this idea that capitalism is much more robust, flexible, and efficient are unfair to other systems.

I'm sorry it's "unfair" to the poor little systems. That's life.

As in many capitalist countries namely the one I keep bringing up Mexico, that is a country that is not robust, flexible or efficient at all.

Mexico in much better shape than NK.

I think capitalism is a good system, but saying what you are saying is considered a stereotype of the system.

All things should be judged on a case by case bases, and in North Korea's case, they have problems with industry because they lost there largest economic partner.

Show me one centrally planned, socialist economy that's lasted for any period of time without resulting in stagnation. Everybody's realized this system is doomed to failure.

2. 5% of GDP in America accounts for over 35% of the budget, more than any other government program so save me the comparison. America spends vastly to much on military, more than any country on the face of the earth.

What's your point? Defense is one of the few legitimate roles of government in the US.

The USSR may not of been efficient, but what it did do was allow in the span of 1 generation bring most of Russia from the 3rd world living conditions to what is considered 2nd world. That is unheard of with any system.

They could have done a lot better had the chosen a different path - namely one that didn't involve tyranny and genocide.

The problem with the system rose when energy, a commodity which they could not obtain efficiently lead the nation to economic collapse. It was not centralizing the government or anything of the like, the US won the war over fossil fuels and pushed them to collapse.

Says who? How? Why?

Because of this, whether that was a good thing or not, tons of countries are back to 3rd world conditions, including much of North Korea.

Just as building bridges to no where (in America) in the grand scheme of things does not do much to offset the budget, building missiles that can reach the US in the grand scheme of things does not do much to offset there already weak budget.

By forcing the Norks to comply to what we want them to do will only do exactly what it did to Germany after WWI...

Push toward Nazism or something worse.

Here's where we invoke Godwin's Law and compare democracy, justice, and liberty to Nazism. Truly something to be proud of...

You really think Kim is bad, wait tell he is overthrown and a true tyrant takes control of North Korea.

Kim is little more than a puppet leader. He is a TOOL used by the KWP to placate the masses. His father, Kim il-sung, had real power. Kim does not.
 
Almost everyone in USSR were middle class citizens, and no that is not a viable reason, there is no evidence to come to this conclusion.

That is a stereotype middle class in the united states have come up with the better understand something they obviously do not understand in the first place.

Also if you truly thing our media is any better than North Korea's I have something to tell you, no media is truly free. It is just at what extent one media is more free than another.

You don't find objective articles in newspapers or on news channels, you find jumbled subjective responses that have interests that conflict with making the news truly free.

At least North Korea is openly running state run news that has it's interest at heart instead of American news that is not objective yet runs around like it is.

YouTube - The Myth of the Liberal Media: The Propaganda Model of News

At least in America Noam Chomsky can sit there and blab about the flaws of the American media.

So can I:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/bias-media/46452-problem-american-journalism.html

Compare this to NK where they still believe the US attacked NK and and they have a satellite orbiting the earth broadcasting revolutionary songs. The credibility gap between the free media and state-run media, particularly the KCNA is enormous.

"Evaluating countries is senseless and I would never put things in those terms, but that some of America's advances, particularly in the area of free speech, that have been achieved by centuries of popular struggle, are to be admired." -Good ol' Noam
 
Last edited:
Them's the breaks. If only it weren't for those greeeeeeeeedy capitalists the Commust Party oligarchs could have conquered and enslaved the entire world... Boohoo...

I'm sorry it's "unfair" to the poor little systems. That's life.

Show me one centrally planned, socialist economy that's lasted for any period of time without resulting in stagnation. Everybody's realized this system is doomed to failure.

What's your point? Defense is one of the few legitimate roles of government in the US.

Here's where we invoke Godwin's Law and compare democracy, justice, and liberty to Nazism. Truly something to be proud of...
1. Your immaturity in your attacks is not helping your argument, it takes a entry level child in the a history class in grade school to realize that America was the leading cause of the downfall of USSR.

2. Can you show me a system that has not stagnated at all at any point?

No you can't. There has never been a full proof system, you tend to learn that if you look at how living things function with each other that life tends to make things harder for itself over time.

Eventually all things are doomed to fail, it is just at what point will they fail and how do you cope with such things.

Capitalism works in cycles, and when it fails to work properly people don't give up like USSR did. Why this is so and why capitalism's proliferation is more a testament to capitalism is the fairest system. It has nothing to do with capitalism efficiency or robustness that you claim, it has to do with it being the most natural system. Like you said life sucks, and naturally in a system where every man is out for himself feels more beneficial to society as a whole.

When capitalism fails it is ok because we all are for ourselves, when communism fails it is somehow to do with the actions of the leaders in power. Guess what, all things are destined to fail, the USSR would had failed eventually, just as America will fail eventually again.

No I did not compare nazism to anything, I said that if we continue to expect them to play by our rules they will push towards nazisms.
 
Communism is bad. Because, basically, they dont have any ability and just doing noisy works to get foods and money.

They are gangsters want to eat good things of rich countries.

They are North Korea, VietNam, Russia, China, ...

che_communist.jpg


images1431157_NewFile


:mrgreen:
 
Last edited:
1. Your immaturity in your attacks is not helping your argument, it takes a entry level child in the a history class in grade school to realize that America was the leading cause of the downfall of USSR.

You can blame it on America or you can blame it on the decisions made by the leaders of the USSR. I think the truth is somewhere in between. The only way the Communist Party could have succeeded is if they faced no competition. This scenario is completely unrealistic. Subtract America and the fight would have been against the fascists and who knows what else.

2. Can you show me a system that has not stagnated at all at any point?

No you can't. There has never been a full proof system, you tend to learn that if you look at how living things function with each other that life tends to make things harder for itself over time.

Nope. Nothing's perfect because people are not perfect. The agility of the western system allowed the West to keep the USSR off balance.

Eventually all things are doomed to fail, it is just at what point will they fail and how do you cope with such things.

Capitalism works in cycles, and when it fails to work properly people don't give up like USSR did. Why this is so and why capitalism's proliferation is more a testament to capitalism is the fairest system. It has nothing to do with capitalism efficiency or robustness that you claim, it has to do with it being the most natural system. Like you said life sucks, and naturally in a system where every man is out for himself feels more beneficial to society as a whole.

You said it, not me.

When capitalism fails it is ok because we all are for ourselves, when communism fails it is somehow to do with the actions of the leaders in power. Guess what, all things are destined to fail, the USSR would had failed eventually, just as America will fail eventually again.

But will America fail so catastrophically that it results in a collapse of the system? Will it be the fault of the system or the leaders? (Obama, Congress, etc.)

No I did not compare nazism to anything, I said that if we continue to expect them to play by our rules they will push towards nazisms.

Refusing to give in to their terroristic demands isn't "forcing" them to do anything. They've backed themselves into a corner.
 
1. Your immaturity in your attacks is not helping your argument, it takes a entry level child in the a history class in grade school to realize that America was the leading cause of the downfall of USSR.
2. Capitalism works in cycles, and when it fails to work properly people don't give up like USSR did. Why this is so and why capitalism's proliferation is more a testament to capitalism is the fairest system. It has nothing to do with capitalism efficiency or robustness that you claim, it has to do with it being the most natural system. Like you said life sucks, and naturally in a system where every man is out for himself feels more beneficial to society as a whole.

When capitalism fails it is ok because we all are for ourselves, when communism fails it is somehow to do with the actions of the leaders in power. Guess what, all things are destined to fail, the USSR would had failed eventually, just as America will fail eventually again.

No I did not compare nazism to anything, I said that if we continue to expect them to play by our rules they will push towards nazisms.

You are either way too young to know what you are talking about, or way too propagandized, or both....
I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Or are you some highly educated college professor that we should listen to?
 
Oh yeah. Lets keep trying to convince the third world that the only people that know how to handle these weapons are coincidentally the ones which already have an arsenal. If I was North Korean I would agree with any country pushing me that I would stop the program and destroy my nukes or technology behind it...only...if they did as well, but playing to a double standard, forget it.
 
Oh yeah. Lets keep trying to convince the third world that the only people that know how to handle these weapons are coincidentally the ones which already have an arsenal. If I was North Korean I would agree with any country pushing me that I would stop the program and destroy my nukes or technology behind it...only...if they did as well, but playing to a double standard, forget it.

NATO, Russia, and China need their weapons to dissuade a first strike. Nobody's going to nuke North Korea unless they nuke us first. There's no reason for them to have them.
 
Oh yeah. Lets keep trying to convince the third world that the only people that know how to handle these weapons are coincidentally the ones which already have an arsenal. If I was North Korean I would agree with any country pushing me that I would stop the program and destroy my nukes or technology behind it...only...if they did as well, but playing to a double standard, forget it.

We created them --- and we are capable of maintaining an arsenal (we have to do this to keep Russia and China checked) safely.

North Korea is run by a mental patient dictator who is about as stable as San Francisco during an earthquake.

The same logic applies to Iran --- accept Iran is a retarded theocracy run by a collection of terrorists.

North Korea sold nuclear technology to Syria --- this has been proven. As such, North Korea has proven they CANNOT be trusted. North Korea armed a country that supports terrorism.

Did you notice how quickly Israel put a foot up Syria's ass over the issue?
 
This isn't about fair, it's about keeping NK from have nukes. I don't give a damn if it's fair or not, I don't want them to have them period. I'd be joyous if only the US had them.
 
This isn't about fair, it's about keeping NK from have nukes. I don't give a damn if it's fair or not, I don't want them to have them period. I'd be joyous if only the US had them.

This is a terrible position, you act as if Americans are the only ones capable of controlling themselves.

If anything Americans lack much self control when it comes to nuclear weapons, we are the only nation to ever use them in an aggressive manor.
 
The U.S. being the only country with nuclear weapons would be a very bad situation.
 
This is a terrible position, you act as if Americans are the only ones capable of controlling themselves.

If anything Americans lack much self control when it comes to nuclear weapons, we are the only nation to ever use them in an aggressive manor.

Those bombs were developed specifically to win WWII. They were being developed on all sides and you can be damned sure the other parties would have used them if they had gotten them first.
 
Back
Top Bottom