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Thread: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

  1. #271
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    So wait, if thier "instinct" is to freeze, but they trained someone not to freeze, then how does them no longer freezing not change the instinct?


    Did you actually read my post before making the above comment? If you had, you wouldn't have. Here, let me help you. I'll repost it and highlight the important parts so, this time, perhaps, you will not miss them:

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This does not change the instinct. It modifies the situation which changes the response based on this modification. Even you said, "Conditioning someone to control their instinctive reactions" alters the situation, but does not change the instinct. The instinct is still in tact, but a different response occurs because, the training has altered the situation.
    Actually, I could have highlighted the entire post, but let's start you off with these comments. The instinct DOES NOT CHANGE. Because training can alter the conditions/situation that one is in, one may react differently, fighting the instinct.

    So, now that I have shown that your interpretation of my post was completely inaccurate, you want to try again?
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #272
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyCore View Post
    Looked to me like that laundry list came from a pro-gun site and the post was simply a copy/paste plagiarism job. How in the world could you have had time to look all of that up but suddenly "irl things" prevent the posting of a couple of links? Also, stop whining. Asking if someone is afraid to post links isn't meant to be insulting. It's meant to point the obvious practice of plagiarism. If you can't handle the heat then stay out of the kitchen.
    Moderator's Warning:
    Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY Your posts are getting increasingly personally attacking. Simmer down, now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #273
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Moderator's Warning:
    Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY Your posts are getting increasingly personally attacking. Simmer down, now.

    Funny how this post wasn't quoted:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057988070-post268.html

    Don't threaten me mid-thread while not openly addressing other posts that are far worse. No, iam not afraid of being banned because if I get banned from a site that practices moderation in this style then it would be a compliment more than a punishment.

  4. #274
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post

    I am not assessing the "freeze" scenario. You are. Are you of the opinion that the "fight" response is the only appropriate reaction? If so, I reject that. All responses are instinctual and have a value based on the situation.

    Are you suggesting that "freeze" is the only appropriate action? I mean if you read what I actually posted you wouldn't ask such a question of me. there is more excuse making for the "freeze" instinct you made than there is that "fight" is the only appropriate action. I have been clear that fight is not the only reaction. attempt to egress.

    if there is no chance to escape, however, than for numbers 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16, and 17, Freezing here was NOT the appropriate action. do you disagree?


    Perhaps, but perhaps not. You are looking at this situation as if those that were killed knew what was going to happen. They had no idea how many bullets the gunman had. With the lack of this information, drawing attention to oneself would not be prudent.

    This is the response of the sheep. no offense. but which of the 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16, and 17 should have figured out the wolf came for the slaughter? Again you stick to psychology, I will stick to tactics.

    the number of bullets is irrelevant. your "wait and see" attitude is not instinct. it is a simple fear of doing what must be done. you are not alone though Captain, you apparently would have been 18, "Waiting and seeing" based on what your "instincts" tell you, that "freezing" is the best thing in a massacre.

    This is both nature, and nurture you are arguing here.





    Since I am not advocating anything, and not what you are saying above, you are either speaking to someone else, or not addressing my point.

    Ahh it's a learned thing I picked up in this thread.





    You are missing the entire point, Reverend. Completely. The best situation was decided instinctively, based on personality and situation. You do not know the personalities involved. And based on the situation, freezing may have been the best response. You seem to be stating that this is a learned behavior. It is not. As you said so well, you stick to tactics, I'll stick to psychology.

    freezing made 14 people more dead and 3 more wounded. Please go ask thier families if "freezing" was the best response.


    We have as you say, 3 responses, but that is not entirely true. there is fight or flight. Freezing is an "instinct" of indecision. indecision can be trained out of most anyone. you doubt me? go take a two week kick boxing class, or a bjj class and free roll/spar with someone. why don't soldiers, police, etc freeze in a tough situation?


    There is nature, and there is nurture. We have nurtured that warrior mentality out of our children. and not that does not mean always fight, but have the presence to mind to decide, fight or flight. "freezing" is indecision of the two and never the "best" response.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  5. #275
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Did you actually read my post before making the above comment? If you had, you wouldn't have. Here, let me help you. I'll repost it and highlight the important parts so, this time, perhaps, you will not miss them:



    Actually, I could have highlighted the entire post, but let's start you off with these comments. The instinct DOES NOT CHANGE. Because training can alter the conditions/situation that one is in, one may react differently, fighting the instinct.

    So, now that I have shown that your interpretation of my post was completely inaccurate, you want to try again?




    I read your post, I want you to clarify. You seem to suggest freezing and getting shot was the "best response" instinctivly. I reject that absurd notion as it left 14 dead and 3 wounded.


    again, if I used to freeze, and now I don't because of hard training. how have i not changed my instinct?

    if i flinched when someone threw a punch at me, and now i block/parry/counter it now without thought, what happened to that "Freeze" instinct, and what do you call my auto reaction of a counter to said punch?


    is that a new instinct? what happened to the "freezing" instinct?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  6. #276
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Are you suggesting that "freeze" is the only appropriate action? I mean if you read what I actually posted you wouldn't ask such a question of me. there is more excuse making for the "freeze" instinct you made than there is that "fight" is the only appropriate action. I have been clear that fight is not the only reaction. attempt to egress.
    I presented all three possible instinctive responses. I believe that indicates that I have suggested that there are three possible actions. I am focusing on "freeze" because that is what happened.

    You have only focused on "fight" which is not what happened. This indicates to me, that this is what you believe is the only appropriate action. If it isn't please explain how it is not.

    if there is no chance to escape, however, than for numbers 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16, and 17, Freezing here was NOT the appropriate action. do you disagree?
    Yes. 2-17 had no idea what was to come next. They had no idea how long it would continue. Instinctively, they did not draw attention to themselves. This was mostly situational but probably had some personality traits mixed in, too.

    This is the response of the sheep. no offense. but which of the 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16, and 17 should have figured out the wolf came for the slaughter? Again you stick to psychology, I will stick to tactics.
    Psychology trumped tactics in this case. As in most.

    the number of bullets is irrelevant. your "wait and see" attitude is not instinct. it is a simple fear of doing what must be done. you are not alone though Captain, you apparently would have been 18, "Waiting and seeing" based on what your "instincts" tell you, that "freezing" is the best thing in a massacre.
    Reverend, you do not understand this instinctive response. Do you have training? If you do, that alters the situation, which mitigates your instinctual response, or ability to suppress the instinctual response...as I said previously. Your training would alter the situation. Not the instinct. You still seem to be focusing on blaming the victim. It is not about fear and it is not about choice.

    This is both nature, and nurture you are arguing here.
    Kind of.

    freezing made 14 people more dead and 3 more wounded. Please go ask thier families if "freezing" was the best response.
    No. The gunman made 14 people more dead and 3 more wounded. Don't blame the victim.


    We have as you say, 3 responses, but that is not entirely true. there is fight or flight. Freezing is an "instinct" of indecision. indecision can be trained out of most anyone. you doubt me? go take a two week kick boxing class, or a bjj class and free roll/spar with someone. why don't soldiers, police, etc freeze in a tough situation?
    Nope. Inaction is an action. Freezing is not indecision. If I take a course in self-defense, I have now altered the situation. The instinct that I would have had in a situation, no longer exists, because the situation is different.

    If I am confronted with someone with a gun, and I do not have one, instinctively, I will react a certain way. If I have a gun, instinctively, I will react differently. The situation has changed, therefore the prior instinct no longer applies. This is the same as if I had training. The instinct is not altered. The situation is.


    There is nature, and there is nurture. We have nurtured that warrior mentality out of our children. and not that does not mean always fight, but have the presence to mind to decide, fight or flight. "freezing" is indecision of the two and never the "best" response.
    No, and I have explained this over and over. This is incorrect. A woman being raped, her best response may be to freeze. Fleeing may not be possible, and fighting might anger the attacker further. Since we know that rape is about violence, this violence could escalate to her death. Best chance of survival is to freeze.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #277
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I read your post, I want you to clarify. You seem to suggest freezing and getting shot was the "best response" instinctivly. I reject that absurd notion as it left 14 dead and 3 wounded.
    No. The gunman left 14 dead and 3 wounded.


    again, if I used to freeze, and now I don't because of hard training. how have i not changed my instinct?

    if i flinched when someone threw a punch at me, and now i block/parry/counter it now without thought, what happened to that "Freeze" instinct, and what do you call my auto reaction of a counter to said punch?


    is that a new instinct? what happened to the "freezing" instinct?
    The situation changes and the instinct no longer applies to that specific situation. Different parameters.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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