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Thread: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

  1. #251
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    I find those particular tools to be more use when I discover my wife has taken my truck for an oil change instead of doing it herself. Last time that happened, I had to drill the plug out and re-tap the hole. A .38 would have made a fair hole very quickly and then I would only have had to weld on a new boss.

    Next time that happens, I'm going to save a lot of work...

    You people really get hung up on the fact that the definition of the word "tool" includes firearms, don't you?

    Tools are material objects used to exert greater force than the bare hands can apply themselves. Occasionally the little lady getting dragged off by a possible rapist is very happy to have a little .22 "tool" in her pocket or purse. Yes, I'm talking about a specific incident. She pointed her tool over her shoulder and applied enough force to not only make him let go, but he was never going to grab anyone again.

    Another man was backing his car out of his driveway when a thug ripped open his door and tried to pull him out. That man's tool allowed him to remain in the driver's seat...all the way. He told the thug, who wasn't mortally wounded, that if he tried to get up that he'd use his tool again.

    Then there was the nice case I read about in good old gun grabbin' Australia, where a little girl, nineteen or so, was attacked by a man with a knife trying to drag her out of her car. She didn't have a tool, so she suffered permanent scarring and the criminal didn't even get hurt.

    Tools are handy things...when they're ready to hand. One cannot morally deny law abiding citizens the use of tools that you happen to be afraid of because the merely gives the people who are going to be violent a bigger edge.

    It's not the law that makes a 90-lb woman the equal to a 250-lb would-be rapist, it's the one pound of steel and gunpowder and lead in her hands.

    Oh cry us a river with pulling heart strings long enough to make a bungy cord to Mars. Please. The world is a crappy place where violence happens every single day. We already know that so cease the petty tear jerking.

    If people want to refer to guns as "tools" I have no problem with that as long as the term is used honestly. The problem is the dishonesty in trying to compare them to freaking car keys and screwdrivers. The only good thing about such comparisons is they show what pathetic lengths some have to go to in order to make themselves feel better about drowning in fear. When a position can't be honestly defended it's time to change something.

  2. #252
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No. By definition, your hand cannot be a tool.

    It has tool-like aspects, being comprised of identifiable levers and all that, but a natural human hand, of meat and bone, is not a tool...



    A weapon is a class of tools.

    Get done with it already.

    A tool is an instrument used to accomplish a goal so yes, a hand can certainly be a tool. Love it how gun lovers like to "tool" words to fit their agenda but apply dictionary draconian laws to everyone else's use of the word.

  3. #253
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    The gun control nazis have yet to understand the simple truth in the saying "God created men. Sam Colt made them equal."
    Lol...gun control nazis? What a joke. Just another example of dishonesty.

  4. #254
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Established fact: virtually every state that has enacted shall-issue (easy to get) concealed-carry permit laws has experienced a drop in violent crime. All citizens of the state benefit from this, as criminals do not know who is armed and who isn't.

    Established fact: the Second Amendment recognized the natural right to keep and bear arms as an individual right.

    Established fact: guns in the hands of private citizens are used to prevent crime far more often than any guns (lawfully or unlawfully obtained) are used to commit crime. The most conservative, low-ball figures quoted in gov't studies are 60,000 to 90,000 defensive uses per year; some pro-gun orgs claim evidence for over a million defensive uses per year. In around 99% of these incidents, no shots are fired; the criminal flees or surrenders when confronted by an armed citizen.

    Established fact: the violent crime rate among lawful permit holders is so low as to be virtually zero.

    Established fact: Cities with draconian anti-gun laws also have extremely high violent crime rates. Criminals like disarmed victims.



    G.

    Established fact: opinions are not facts.

  5. #255
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    In 1987, when Florida enacted such legislation, critics warned that the "Sunshine State" would become the "Gunshine State." Contrary to their predictions, homicide rates dropped faster than the national average. Further, through 1997, only one permit holder out of the over 350,000 permits issued, was convicted of homicide. (Source: Kleck, Gary Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, p 370. Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.) If the rest of the country behaved as Florida's permit holders did, the U.S. would have the lowest homicide rate in the world.

    David Kopel, Research Director at the Independence Institute comments on Florida's concealed carry experience:

    "What we can say with some confidence is that allowing more people to carry guns does not cause an increase in crime. In Florida, where 315,000 permits have been issued, there are only five known instances of violent gun crime by a person with a permit. This makes a permit-holding Floridian the cream of the crop of law-abiding citizens, 840 times less likely to commit a violent firearm crime than a randomly selected Floridian without a permit." ("More Permits Mean Less Crime..." Los Angeles Times, Feb. 19, 1996, Monday, p. B-5)

    The Lott-Mustard Report

    John Lott and David Mustard, in connection with the University of Chicago Law School, examining crime statistics from 1977 to 1992 for all U.S. counties, concluded that the thirty-one states allowing their residents to carry concealed, had significant reductions in violent crime. Lott writes, "Our most conservative estimates show that by adopting shall-issue laws, states reduced murders by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens might have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies. To put it even more simply criminals, we found, respond rationally to deterrence threats... While support for strict gun-control laws usually has been strongest in large cities, where crime rates are highest, that's precisely where right-to-carry laws have produced the largest drops in violent crimes."

    (Source: "More Guns, Less Violent Crime", Professor John R. Lott, Jr., The Wall Street Journal, August 28, 1996, (The Rule of Law column).

    Whether or not one believes a portion of the drop in violent crime is due to "shall-issue" legislation, Lott's study provides strong evidence that allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons does not increase gun crime or fatal gun accident rates.

    Historian Benedict LaRosa noted the same effect in D.C.: "In 1976, Washington, D.C., instituted one of the strictest gun-control laws in the country. The murder rate since that time has risen 134 percent (77.8 per 100,000 population) while the overall rate for the country has declined 2 percent."
    Samuel Adams, US Founder:

    "The said constitution shall never be construed to authorize congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."

    Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life; second, to liberty; third, to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of ... the duty of self-preservation, commonly called the first law of nature.


    Thomas Jefferson, US Founder:

    "No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

    On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
    The Hart Poll in 1981 found 644,000 defensive uses with handguns per
    year. The Mauser Poll in 1990 found 691,000 defensive uses per year.
    The Field Poll in California in 1978 found 1.2 million handgun defensive
    uses per year. The Time/CNN Poll in 1989 found over 908,000 defensive
    uses per year. Gary Kleck estimated the yearly defensive use of firearms
    by civilians to be at about 1,000,000 per year. A more recent study by
    Gary Kleck put the yearly total at approximately 2,400,000 defensive
    uses. Yet the total deaths by firearm in the USA only runs about 25,000
    to 30,000 per year, and that includes accidents, murders, suicides and
    self defense homicides. That means a gun is 30-40 times more likely
    to defend against an assault or other crime than kill anybody. As
    accidental firearm's related deaths is about 1400 per year, including
    hunting accidents, the defensive use verses accidental death ratio is
    about 700-800 to 1.

    Gary Kleck completed another survey in 1995. This one had a sample size
    of 5000 and confirmed his former estimate of 2,400,000 defensive uses
    per year in the USA. [Kleck, Gary and Gertz, M, Armed resistance to
    crime: the prevalence and nature of self-defense with a gun. Journal
    of Criminal Law and Criminology. 86:143-186. (1995)]

    Facts are facts, and calling them opinions does not change them.

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-11-09 at 12:51 PM.

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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Very well then. Perhaps you would like to clarify your position, and we can discuss it.
    G.


    Why should I? This isn't about my stance on guns or gun control. It is apparent that you have not understood what my real issue in the thread has been. It is not difficult to understand if you actually read what I am saying. Instead you have incorrectly assumed that I was trying to disarm you under the color of the law, then incorrectly assumed that I dont want restrictions on second amendment rights. You have me at both ends of the spectrum without realizing that there is something in between.
    My argument in this thread is that it was wrong to assume that the 13 murdered victims were meek sheep who deserved to die because they were unarmed and refused to fight back. Up until now, we dont know what went on in the classroom so it is wrong to assume, and especially wrong to blame the victims.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post

    If you do not wish to go armed, that is your choice and I would not try to force you. Please give me the same courtesy and don't try to disarm me under the color of law.

    G.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I am pleased that you do not wish to restrict second amendment rights.

    G.
    Last edited by FlyOnTheWall; 04-11-09 at 02:37 PM.

  7. #257
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyOnTheWall View Post
    He twisted nothing. I wanted to make the same comment when I read your post. Apparently something tragic happened in your life that made you believe you were not safe unless you were carrying a gun. Some peeps use religion as a crutch, you use a gun.
    I have been in the world for 48 years without carrying a gun, and I have not been attacked by any criminal. Guess I have been lucky.

    In most cases, carrying 24/7 means a person is paranoid that evil is out to get him. That person probably has some emotional disorder which was brought on by a traumatic event.
    You indicate that your only intrest in the thread was in denying that the victims were to blame for not resisting the shooter. While I think it is unfortunate that no one was prepared and able to stop the nutcase, I agree that blaming the victims is inappropriate. However, you comments went beyond this simple issue into larger issues about carrying guns, and disparaging remarks about armed citizens. I thought you might wish to present your position in a clear and unequivocal manner and debate the larger issue. If you do not wish to, then don't.

    G.

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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    You indicate that your only intrest in the thread was in denying that the victims were to blame for not resisting the shooter.
    G.
    Incorrect. I said
    My argument in this thread
    I did not say it was my only interest. We have all strayed a bit from the topic at one point, and I am no exception. However, to start talking about my stance on gun control would take us further off topic because I have not used my stance as a point in the thread.
    Last edited by FlyOnTheWall; 04-11-09 at 03:19 PM.

  9. #259
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Thread drift hardly seems to be a capital offense here on DP, as long as there is some vague relation to the original topic. However, as you wish.

    G.

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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Facts are facts, and calling them opinions does not change them.

    G.
    Afraid to post links?

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