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Thread: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post

    I am glad to hear it. It was not my intention to present a straw man argument, but rather to throw it out there and see what you said about it. I am pleased that you do not wish to restrict second amendment rights.

    G.
    lol

    I never said that I did not wish to restrict second amendment rights, I said "not once in this thread have I advocated laws to ban weapons".


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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyOnTheWall View Post
    lol

    I never said that I did not wish to restrict second amendment rights, I said "not once in this thread have I advocated laws to ban weapons".


    Very well then. Perhaps you would like to clarify your position, and we can discuss it.





    G.

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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyCore View Post
    Very blurred indeed. The other day I was changing my oil and ask a neighbor if it was better to use a .38 Special or a .44 Magnum to remove the oil plan plug. Then today I needed to take the chemical injector off of a pressure washer and used a 12 gauge shotgun instead of a 9/16 wrench because the two were designed to basically do the same thing. Very blurry lines indeed.
    I find those particular tools to be more use when I discover my wife has taken my truck for an oil change instead of doing it herself. Last time that happened, I had to drill the plug out and re-tap the hole. A .38 would have made a fair hole very quickly and then I would only have had to weld on a new boss.

    Next time that happens, I'm going to save a lot of work...

    You people really get hung up on the fact that the definition of the word "tool" includes firearms, don't you?

    Tools are material objects used to exert greater force than the bare hands can apply themselves. Occasionally the little lady getting dragged off by a possible rapist is very happy to have a little .22 "tool" in her pocket or purse. Yes, I'm talking about a specific incident. She pointed her tool over her shoulder and applied enough force to not only make him let go, but he was never going to grab anyone again.

    Another man was backing his car out of his driveway when a thug ripped open his door and tried to pull him out. That man's tool allowed him to remain in the driver's seat...all the way. He told the thug, who wasn't mortally wounded, that if he tried to get up that he'd use his tool again.

    Then there was the nice case I read about in good old gun grabbin' Australia, where a little girl, nineteen or so, was attacked by a man with a knife trying to drag her out of her car. She didn't have a tool, so she suffered permanent scarring and the criminal didn't even get hurt.

    Tools are handy things...when they're ready to hand. One cannot morally deny law abiding citizens the use of tools that you happen to be afraid of because the merely gives the people who are going to be violent a bigger edge.

    It's not the law that makes a 90-lb woman the equal to a 250-lb would-be rapist, it's the one pound of steel and gunpowder and lead in her hands.

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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyOnTheWall View Post
    I already demonstrated how tools and weapons are interchangeable in post 230. My hand can be a weapon or tool depending on the workload.
    No. By definition, your hand cannot be a tool.

    It has tool-like aspects, being comprised of identifiable levers and all that, but a natural human hand, of meat and bone, is not a tool...

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyOnTheWall View Post
    It was stated that a gun was a tool which was used for neutralizing threats. When one neutralizes a threat with a gun, one is projecting retaliation with bodily harm, and in this case the gun is a weapon.
    A weapon is a class of tools.

    Get done with it already.

  5. #245
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Established fact: virtually every state that has enacted shall-issue (easy to get) concealed-carry permit laws has experienced a drop in violent crime. All citizens of the state benefit from this, as criminals do not know who is armed and who isn't.

    Established fact: the Second Amendment recognized the natural right to keep and bear arms as an individual right.

    Established fact: guns in the hands of private citizens are used to prevent crime far more often than any guns (lawfully or unlawfully obtained) are used to commit crime. The most conservative, low-ball figures quoted in gov't studies are 60,000 to 90,000 defensive uses per year; some pro-gun orgs claim evidence for over a million defensive uses per year. In around 99% of these incidents, no shots are fired; the criminal flees or surrenders when confronted by an armed citizen.

    Established fact: the violent crime rate among lawful permit holders is so low as to be virtually zero.

    Established fact: Cities with draconian anti-gun laws also have extremely high violent crime rates. Criminals like disarmed victims.



    G.

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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    It's not the law that makes a 90-lb woman the equal to a 250-lb would-be rapist, it's the one pound of steel and gunpowder and lead in her hands.
    The gun control nazis have yet to understand the simple truth in the saying "God created men. Sam Colt made them equal."

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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    So we know this, that one of the instincual responses is to freeze. Are you suggesting we should accept our lot in life and just freeze and bear our necks to the "Wolf"?
    I am suggesting that this is beyond conscious thought and is instinctual, based on personality and situation.


    I am advocating a different way, just the way we teach about condoms, sex, drugs, etc, why could we not teach ourselves not to freeze.
    The three "F's" response is instinctual. One cannot teach instinct. One can modify it based on the situation. One who freezes, for example, may not always freeze. It depends on their situation.

    As you describe it it surely is a conscious decision. You made the "more likley" comment, indicating indeed in your scenario, one chose to freeze because they thought it more likley to move would cause death.
    No, Reverend. Instinctively, it would be more likely to freeze because of the situation. Thought does not come into play. Instinct based on personality and the scenario, does.


    You are wrong. A moving target is a much harder object to hit than a stationary one .
    A moving target in an enclosed area draws attention to that target.


    Tell those 17 total shot, how they made the "safer" decision.
    Instinctively, it may have been the best of a no-win situation.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Captain, a person's fight/flight/freeze responses can be modified. Military basic training and police academy trainers do it to recruits all the time. Conditioning someone to control their instinctive reactions and channel them into a deliberate and useful plan of action is part of what distinguishes the well-trained from the untrained.

    Character, courage, and innate aggression are factors, but these can be modified by training also.

    G.
    This does not change the instinct. It modifies the situation which changes the response based on this modification. Even you said, "Conditioning someone to control their instinctive reactions" alters the situation, but does not change the instinct. The instinct is still in tact, but a different response occurs because, the training has altered the situation.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #249
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I am suggesting that this is beyond conscious thought and is instinctual, based on personality and situation.




    The three "F's" response is instinctual. One cannot teach instinct. One can modify it based on the situation. One who freezes, for example, may not always freeze. It depends on their situation.

    This completley muddles your point. obfuscation? What is your point here? I already suggested this.


    No, Reverend. Instinctively, it would be more likely to freeze because of the situation. Thought does not come into play. Instinct based on personality and the scenario, does.
    So again, I ask, are these peoples victims of thier instinct? and there is no hope of society to break this? or do you see no problem with people "freezing"






    A moving target in an enclosed area draws attention to that target.

    how about you stick to the psychology side, and I will concentrate on the tactics side.

    Sure it may draw more attention, but standing there made these people more deader.


    it is shocking to see people actually advocating capitulation and freezing.





    Instinctively, it may have been the best of a no-win situation.

    The best? really? I pity you. you have "given up" and the wolf is no where is sight....

    "instinctivly" the best thing to do, is to win this gunfight by all means neccessary...


    please tell me, how was it the "best" for lets say 10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17 to sit there and wait to be shot? they just saw what 1-9 got... how was this the "best of a no-win situation".......


    This mindset is so pitiful.....
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  10. #250
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    Re: Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This does not change the instinct. It modifies the situation which changes the response based on this modification. Even you said, "Conditioning someone to control their instinctive reactions" alters the situation, but does not change the instinct. The instinct is still in tact, but a different response occurs because, the training has altered the situation.


    So wait, if thier "instinct" is to freeze, but they trained someone not to freeze, then how does them no longer freezing not change the instinct?


    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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